North Korea

[Flamez]

psychokind wrote:

Flamez wrote: psychokind wrote: in the very few wars they fought, the USA always won militarily, but always lost politically. okay, except WW2 and WW1 nope, WW1 was politically lost too. otherwise there wouldn't have been a WW2

Seeing as Im studying it; id say WW2 was a unique event. As bad as he was, Hitler was an amazing man when it came to playing politics. He managed to get his country to vote away democracy, from that point WW2 was going to occur (although not in the way he had planned).

Politically Id say WW1 was won, but Germany ended up pulling the Joker from the deck.

[psychokind]

Flamez wrote:

psychokind wrote: Flamez wrote: psychokind wrote: in the very few wars they fought, the USA always won militarily, but always lost politically. okay, except WW2 and WW1 nope, WW1 was politically lost too. otherwise there wouldn't have been a WW2 Seeing as Im studying it; id say WW2 was a unique event. As bad as he was, Hitler was an amazing man when it came to playing politics. He managed to get his country to vote away democracy, from that point WW2 was going to occur (although not in the way he had planned). Politically Id say WW1 was won, but Germany ended up pulling the Joker from the deck.

the germans didn't feel like they lost WW1, and that left-wing politics were responsible for our capitulation. without the already seeding anger and hate, hitler might not have become führer, because it was his mightiest tool next to unemployement.

[Freedan]

*Old thread bump*

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2011/02/north_koreans_are_starving_reports_mercy_corps.html

So it seems N. Korea is experiencing some problems. More than half of their crops have died off, and there are massive food shortages.

The question is: do they get help? They've repeatedly threatened S. Korea and the U.S. several times before, and were itching for a fight not long ago. On the other hand, it's the military and government speaking for the country, not the civilians, and they're the ones that are starving. Probably because the government has hoarded everything for themselves, as tends to happen in a dictatorship.

Are we obligated, as civilized people, to help those in need and prevent suffering? Or do people suffer the consequences of their government, and this is just karma?

[tay120n64]

It's not our problem. Maybe this will incite a revolution or something and it will be a better country because of it? Maybe not?

Either way: Their problem. Not ours.

[inferiare]

Karma. They decided they needed to be AWESOME AND WE HATE EVERYONE WHO ISN'T US and they alienated everyone but most likely all of the other communists. If they want help, they can reform themselves.

[psychokind]

tay120n64 wrote:

Either way: Their problem. Not ours.

it's hard to say that in a globalized world. as long as they leave south korea alone they may starve.

[rayim]

inferiare wrote:

... If they want help, they can reform themselves.

Completely agree. It would still be important to help the people if they want to. But people are easily manipulated by terror. So you end up in a vicious circle.
As an act of faith, anyway, i consider the same.

[Jason Tandro]

inferiare wrote:

Karma. They decided they needed to be AWESOME AND WE HATE EVERYONE WHO ISN'T US and they alienated everyone but most likely all of the other communists. If they want help, they can reform themselves.

I actually am not sure I agree with you on that. The whole point of the Korean War was to try and stop the communist regime. The people had nothing to do with it.

Still, if we help them, the government will have no reason to help their people, not that they do. Maybe N. Korea will take a page out of Egypt and Libya's book... one can only hope.

[Blade]

inferiare wrote:

Karma. They decided they needed to be AWESOME AND WE HATE EVERYONE WHO ISN'T US and they alienated everyone but most likely all of the other communists. If they want help, they can reform themselves.

This sounds like "reforming your leadership" is as easy as painting by numbers.

If the EU or the USA decide to help them, I don't think there's any way "we" the people can have a say in that. NGO's most likely will.

[psychokind]

however, we can't do shit about north korea anyway because of china

[Blade]

psychokind wrote:

however, we can't do shit about north korea anyway because of china

how are they related?

[Freedan]

China is North Korea's ally (their only ally, really). If the U.S. or anyone else tries to punish N. Korea too much, China gets all defensive on their behalf.

And with China becoming much more influential economically recently, the U.S. doesn't want to do anything that might damage trade relations with them.

[inferiare]

As far as "reforming" goes, I mean that in the way of the people finally standing up for themselves and getting rid of their corrupt government. While yes, it would take a lot to do so, at the same time, I would think that "Oh... we have no food because of our government" would be a pretty good catalyst.

The same thing happened in China when their glorious Communist leader finally took over back in the 40's; they had this HUGE famine that killed a good chunk of China's population. History almost seems to be repeating itself, and the people of North Korea would be smart in stopping it from fully repeating itself before it's too late.