Nurturing and Self-Esteem

[Jason Tandro]

In my country, we are now teaching kids that results don't matter. That they are special no matter what.

In Massachusetts, they have eliminated most sports programs in elementary schools except something they refer to as "non-results oriented competition". Basically they play soccer and don't keep score. Which to me seems redundant (lol, most popular sport in the world burn. )

They are working on eliminating grading entirely, but in the meantime in some locales (I kid you not) they have replaced the F (Fail) Grade with H for "Held".

And "authority" on the subject, had this to say:

Quote:

“What an ‘F’ says is that you just don’t get it,” Johnson said. “But what if the child gets pieces of it but they haven’t mastered everything? Or perhaps that ‘F’ says you failed three tests but not necessarily failed the entire skill.” Some students simply don’t perform well on exams, and grades typically don’t reveal “what’s behind” the failure, Johnson said.

Aside from this there is a general mindset that has been brought about by the aging generation Y-ers that self-esteem is more important than properly raising the children. And this generation of kids is going to suffer for it.

---

Now, let me explain myself quite clearly on this one.

First off, self-esteem is overrated in my opinion. I realize that sounds shitty, but what I mean is you don't ALWAYS have to feel good about yourself. Feeling bad, feeling like you didn't perform well enough, feeling like crap; it's a motivator. It makes you want to do better next time.

And the kids who are being told that their actions will no longer have negative results are simply being raised to think they are infallible. And guess what? They aren't going to try harder because there is no more consequence for failure.

The reason American education is the butt of everybody's jokes in the international scene is because of crap like this. What happens when this generation grows up and joins the real world and suddenly realize they not only don't have the knowledge to cope with the real world, but the emotional maturity?

Teen suicide rates have almost doubled since ten years ago, and the liberal media (I hate to use that word because I always sound like Rush Limbaugh, but it's true in this case) has said that it's because children are being stressed to much and pushed too hard, and they use it as an excuse to push through this softer methods.

No, that's crap. What's happening is kids are finally realizing that they aren't special, and having never "failed" at anything they can't cope with it. This "non-results oriented" crap has to go away or our children's future will be in jeopardy. Raising an entire culture of entitled kids who have never had to work for anything is bad in and of itself.

But more importantly, AND IF YOU READ NO OTHER SENTENCE IN THIS POST, READ THIS ONE, what develops true self-esteem is a child overcoming obstacles. A child who watches their hard work earn them rewards. A child who, yeah let's face it, finds out that they are better at something than their peers because they worked for it.

Anyways, rant over. Your turn.

[EverPhoenix]

i think removing grading systems is stupid. without a grading system, everyone is equal. those who dont give a shit doing just as well as those who work hard for it. not only is this unfair, but it doesnt help the kids (both achievers and non).

they'll come into the real world and realise that grading and skill is everything. and, if theyve been slack during school coz it didnt matter, and didnt learn how to work, then, to put it bluntly (and in gamer terms, no less), gg to them.

[tay120n64]

That's alright, because when they get to college, they'll be royally effed.

See, when I was growing up I NEVER got rewarded for getting good grades. If I got ANYTHING lower than a B I was immediately punished.

I remember in 7th grade (1999) after my dad saw my first 9-weeks report card, he took away all my Pokemon toys, cards, music, and games and said I could have it back at the end of the semester.

Talk about a motivator, that was the same month the 1st Pokemon movie came out.

[Miss Prime Blue]

I think self-esteem is important, but it needs to come from you, not from what other people want you to be.

There was never any real pressure for me to get "good grades" as a child. So, I usually found it easier to.

If you level the playing field too much, however, it's possible there will be nothing to strive for, and that hard work doesn't pay off, will be a likely message.

I don't agree with that method --- kids need to work just as hard as everyone else to get to where they want to be.

This coddling thing is not going to work.

[tay120n64]

Miss Prime Blue wrote:

There was never any real pressure for me to get "good grades" as a child. So, I usually found it easier to.

I was never pressured to do well, but my parents were always on my ass to NOT DO BAD.

[Jason Tandro]

tay120n64 wrote:

Miss Prime Blue wrote: There was never any real pressure for me to get "good grades" as a child. So, I usually found it easier to. I was never pressured to do well, but my parents were always on my ass to NOT DO BAD.

Now you see I think that's just as bad on the opposite side of the spectrum. If you keep a kids nose too hard to grindstone, the second they have any freedom or independence they are going to rebel, naturally. I think there needs to be a balance of punishment for failure AND reward for success.

[Miss Prime Blue]

What's worse; having a parent or parents who push you out of love, or parents who push you out of them wanting you to become what they want you to be, and put intense amounts of pressure on you because of it (it's mostly for them, they use you as an extension of themselves);

Or,

Having a parent that seemingly has no goals or aspirations for you, doesn't seem to think you're going anywhere, doesn't push you in anyway to achieve anything, and puts little pressure on you because of it.

Of course, in my case, I have my own goals and aspirations, so it doesn't really matter, but, which one do you think is a worse situation?

Which one most exemplifies parental love?

[Freedan]

Oh, boy. Ohhh, boy.... this is something I'm quite passionate about.

Rant mode on.

The fact that kids are no longer 'allowed' to fail is absolutely appalling. We have a similar thing going on, at least in this province. Kids no longer receive an F, they get an R (which means 'remedial action necessary'). Apparently, seeing an 'F' was too damaging to the kid's self-esteem. So they replace it with a letter that means essentially the same thing.

But here's the thing.... teachers here are, for the most part, essentially forbidden from even giving a failing grade. My girlfriend is a teacher, and teaches a variety of grades. In one of her classes, there is a student who literally does no work. He refuses.

Logically, she should give the kid an R, on account of having a 0 in the class. But she can't do that. It seems he just 'doesn't work well in the existing environment', and she's supposed to actually modify her lesson plans.... for one student.... to 'engage him on his level'. If she doesn't, and she gives him a failing grade, it will be seen as her failure for not 'engaging' the student. So the worst she can do is give him a D-, a barely-passing grade. (She could fail him, but the school board would hound her like hell, and she's being evaluated as a teacher this year, which would doom her career just as its starting).

There are several problems with this.

First, it sends a very piss-poor message to the other students. There are students in her classes who do the work, write the tests, genuinely struggle, and get a D-. They do all the work, and basically earn their D. This kid, who literally does nothing, is being given the same grade as them at worst. This tells the students "you're doing as well as this person, who does nothing at all".

Second, this kid obviously needs special teaching. Instead of giving him one-on-one teaching, they keep him in his existing class and expect the teacher to modify all of her lesson plans for him. Considering she already spends 4 hours a night preparing lessons (not counting grading tests/assignments), that's a ridiculous expectation.

Third, they're not doing the kid any favours. They're pushing him through the school system when he can't/won't do anything. So what happens when he gets to high school? Will they continue to push him forward?

When he refuses to do any work, she is allowed to send the kid home. Except she's not allowed to do that too often, because the kid's parents (who are wealthy, incidentally) would become upset if they notice a trend of him only being sent home during her class.

This kid deserves to fail. Forget protecting self-esteem. When you refuse to work, you deserve to fail. This kid is destined for an assistant-manager position in his Dad's company that he won't be qualified for. And what will he do when he gets there? He won't work. He'll have no education whatsoever. Because the school board won't allow a student to fail.

My girlfriend taught overseas in Japan for a year, and their school system is something we could learn from. If a student behaved like this over there, the teacher would smack them across the head with their book. Literally. As well as ask just what kind of future that kid wants for themselves. And the kid would shape up and work.

Students have it way too soft. Failing work deserves a failing grade, and it's absolutely embarrassing that we don't do that (not to mention infuriating to her).

[Miss Prime Blue]

Freedan wrote:

Oh, boy. Ohhh, boy.... this is something I'm quite passionate about. Rant mode on. The fact that kids are no longer 'allowed' to fail is absolutely appalling. We have a similar thing going on, at least in this province. Kids no longer receive an F, they get an R (which means 'remedial action necessary'). Apparently, seeing an 'F' was too damaging to the kid's self-esteem. So they replace it with a letter that means essentially the same thing. But here's the thing.... teachers here are, for the most part, essentially forbidden from even giving a failing grade. My girlfriend is a teacher, and teaches a variety of grades. In one of her classes, there is a student who literally does no work. He refuses. Students have it way too soft. Failing work deserves a failing grade, and it's absolutely embarrassing that we don't do that (not to mention infuriating to her).

Wow, I feel sorry for your girlfriend for having to deal with that. :[

Why get a "passing" grade for not putting the work in? why even bother showing up to class if you're just going to sit there?

ridiculous.

[SoulBlazerFan]

Heh. What's self-esteem but something to be crushed at some point or another? Isn't another strong point of learning taking from our failures and doing our best to succeed at them later in life? Triumph through adversity?

This generation will be as bad as the one that came before it. We bred a generation of armchair critics and bloggers instead of real leaders who will make a difference one day. I can only imagine what the next generation will bring if they continue down this trend.

Freedan: I wholeheartedly agree with you. But, hitting a kid with a book, (Or a ruler, as they used to do in Catholic schools) would be against the law. It's not a teachers job to disipline the children- that falls on the parents.

Also, here's something that you may not know: A teacher is not allowed to tell students their grades alloud. For instance, you ever gotten a bad grade (Like a D, for instance) and the teacher called you out in front of the whole class, to make you feel like an ass? (Hey, that one rhymed)

Well, that's a character building technique. However, after having that happen to me on a few occasions I found out teachers aren't allowed to do that. In fact, they can get into serious trouble for doing that to a student.

Embarassing a student in front of a class is a motivator for them to do better next time. I don't see why they would want to stop this, unless they are trying to lower "suicide rates" or something to that extent. Guaranteed, it's not school that causes kids to become suicidial- it's exisitential forces, like relationships that turn sour and/or poor parenting.

We as a society blame everything (Video games, films, TV) that goes wrong with our children instead of taking a look at our own faults. It's just easier to blame a vast majority (IE: Everything else!) than to take a really good look at ourselves and see that we all have our own faults.

Back on a track: It's gotten to the point where teachers are told to silently had out all tests by hand (No more passing back in your row deal), lay it down on the table flat, so no other students can see the grade. They've even taken to, in colleges, listing your grades next to the last four digits of your social security number instead of using your name, to further push this idea- and this is at a college level, no less.

Well, at this rate, teen suicides rates are going to double because we arern't pushing this generation to try at anything. There's a saying that goes, "If at first you don't succeed, try and try again." It seems like now we're saying "You don't have to succeed at anything, and you certainly don't have to try it again."

[Miss Prime Blue]

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

Heh. What's self-esteem but something to be crushed at some point or another? Isn't another strong point of learning taking from our failures and doing our best to succeed at them later in life? Triumph through adversity? This generation will be as bad as the one that came before it. We bred a generation of armchair critics and bloggers instead of real leaders who will make a difference one day. I can only imagine what the next generation will bring if they continue down this trend. Freedan: I wholeheartedly agree with you. But, hitting a kid with a book, (Or a ruler, as they used to do in Catholic schools) would be against the law. It's not a teachers job to disipline the children- that falls on the parents. Also, here's something that you may not know: A teacher is not allowed to tell students their grades alloud. For instance, you ever gotten a bad grade (Like a D, for instance) and the teacher called you out in front of the whole class, to make you feel like an ass? (Hey, that one rhymed) Well, that's a character building technique. However, after having that happen to me on a few occasions I found out teachers aren't allowed to do that. In fact, they can get into serious trouble for doing that to a student. Embarassing a student in front of a class is a motivator for them to do better next time. I don't see why they would want to stop this, unless they are trying to lower "suicide rates" or something to that extent. Guaranteed, it's not school that causes kids to become suicidial- it's exisitential forces, like relationships that turn sour and/or poor parenting. We as a society blame everything (Video games, films, TV) that goes wrong with our children instead of taking a look at our own faults. It's just easier to blame a vast majority (IE: Everything else!) than to take a really good look at ourselves and see that we all have our own faults. Back on a track: It's gotten to the point where teachers are told to silently had out all tests by hand (No more passing back in your row deal), lay it down on the table flat, so no other students can see the grade. They've even taken to, in colleges, listing your grades next to the last four digits of your social security number instead of using your name, to further push this idea- and this is at a college level, no less. Well, at this rate, teen suicides rates are going to double because we arern't pushing this generation to try at anything. There's a saying that goes, "If at first you don't succeed, try and try again." It seems like now we're saying "You don't have to succeed at anything, and you certainly don't have to try it again."

I agree with the majority of your post, except for the "embarassing student in front of class" thing. I find teachers who do this unprofessional, especially if the kid is trying his/her best to learn. Unless it's an -extreme- slacker who could not care less, I wouldn't use that tactic.

If anything, having a teacher that makes you an example, when school is hard enough, would be enough for them to not want to go.

[inferiare]

Oh. It's the no child left behind bullcrap. Basically the kids won't feel inferior because their friends passed and they didn't because we have to shove the kids through school! Uh no, school is for LEARNING not coddling. If they're that freakin' worried about grades and shit, they should do like the colleges and set up places for the students to get extra help if they're not doing that already.

Trying to motvate kids to learn and try should be their main priority, as well as teaching them that they won't always be good at things.

And kids are already entitled little brats. If it weren't inappropriate for me to slap kids and shove a bar of soap in their mouths in my workplace, I would have done so already.

[Miss Prime Blue]

inferiare wrote:

And kids are already entitled little brats. If it weren't inappropriate for me to slap kids and shove a bar of soap in their mouths in my workplace, I would have done so already.

Oh, so true. Instead of pushing the kids to do better with tutoring and stuff, they basically get a free pass for doing nothing. I don't see how this is anywhere near an "education."

It's only hurting them in the end, anyway. All this PC crap just hurts people in the end. It does not give a realistic view of life in general to make kids sail easily through school without any effort, because the real world does not work that way.


These kids will end up stunted. That's pretty much the most ridiculous part - school is supposed to educate you and prepare you for the real world. But giving an A to someone who doesn't deserve it, it just takes all the value out of hard work.

Plus, it's a real insult to the teachers who actually like teaching and care about their students.

[Flamez]

As a 3rd year education student, I laugh at this. This is the perfect way to make a generation of cry babies, children need to be taught how to deal with failure, better yet, how to avoid it all together, by actually passing. Not like school matters overly much anyway, if someone wants to get into university it is still possible (I got a very low score in my final school year); children need to be motivated to succeed, not sheltered from failure.

[SoulBlazerFan]

[quote="Miss Prime Blue"]

inferiare wrote:

Plus, it's a real insult to the teachers who actually like teaching and care about their students.

...It sucks that so many teachers end up becoming miserable assholes down the road- because they aren't allowed to truly teach- school isn't about learning the material, persay. It's also about getting the learning skills necessary to be able to do whatever you choose to do in life.

This generation coming, and the ones after, are doomed to be uptight shitheads who feel entitled to the world,and won't be able to grasp when they can't reach for the stars because they just assume everything will be handed to them on a silver platter. Without failure, you can never truly know success. (That one is going on FB)

My sisters are like this, sort of. I remember when I had to wait until the holidays to get anything I wanted- or work my butt off to pay for it.

My sisters bitch because the cellphones my dad got them aren't good enough, the computers my dad PAID IN FULL aren't up to par (I've never owned a real computer- they are just thrown together by my friends, which I had to pay for) and the fact that their iPods are out of date.

On more than one occasion, I told them if they weren't girls, I'd smack 'em upside the head. They have so much more me and my other two siblings (Me at 24 and they both at 23) ever had, and they can't be happy with the things they're given. Want to know what they do when we call them out on it? They start whining. Ugh.