[HOT ISSUE] Abortion

[inferiare]

psychokind wrote:

what about sickness and handicaps you can't foresee in the first weeks/months? I think it's better killing a fetus than presenting him a life full of shit after it's born

I'm on the fence with that, really. On one hand, I think it would be better to do that then let it be born and have a million different complications.

On the other, if the sickness/handicaps aren't so bad, I'd rather give a child a good life than kill it. If the child only lives for a few years or whatnot, well... so be it, if that's the case.

[Jason Tandro]

The "my body, my choice" argument is a load, plain and simple. We're not talking about the mother's body, we're talking about the body of the human life. In a perfect world, the decision wouldn't even be present, but realising that, the baby is the end result of a man and a woman. Fathers are just as important as the mothers and just because it will be the mother who physically gives birth changes nothing when you are dealing with a human life.

If you are the father of a child (who is like 5 years old) and your wife says she's going to shoot him, you would do everything in your power to stop her, right? So why the double-standard?

EverPhoenix: Please don't tell me that you honestly believe that only the mother's life will be affected by having a baby. And I can name several cases where a girl has been for abortion and the father wanted a say. That's where the whole "my body, my choice" argument came from!

[EverPhoenix]

Jason Tandro wrote:

The "my body, my choice" argument is a load, plain and simple. We're not talking about the mother's body, we're talking about the body of the human life. In a perfect world, the decision wouldn't even be present, but realising that, the baby is the end result of a man and a woman. Fathers are just as important as the mothers and just because it will be the mother who physically gives birth changes nothing when you are dealing with a human life. If you are the father of a child (who is like 5 years old) and your wife says she's going to shoot him, you would do everything in your power to stop her, right? So why the double-standard? EverPhoenix: Please don't tell me that you honestly believe that only the mother's life will be affected by having a baby. And I can name several cases where a girl has been for abortion and the father wanted a say. That's where the whole "my body, my choice" argument came from!

did i say that only the mother's life would be affected? if i did, i wasnt entirely correct in phrasing my argument. i moreso meant that the mother would be more affected by having a baby. at least until the baby is born.

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

psychokind wrote: what about sickness and handicaps you can't foresee in the first weeks/months? I think it's better killing a fetus than presenting him a life full of shit after it's born I'm on the fence with that, really. On one hand, I think it would be better to do that then let it be born and have a million different complications. On the other, if the sickness/handicaps aren't so bad, I'd rather give a child a good life than kill it. If the child only lives for a few years or whatnot, well... so be it, if that's the case.

absolutely. problem is, who decides what's "not so bad"? what if you think before that it'll be alright, and you later have to realize that your child hates his life? I couldn't bear with that responsibility.

[tay120n64]

Jason Tandro wrote:

The "my body, my choice" argument is a load, plain and simple. We're not talking about the mother's body, we're talking about the body of the human life. In a perfect world, the decision wouldn't even be present, but realising that, the baby is the end result of a man and a woman. Fathers are just as important as the mothers and just because it will be the mother who physically gives birth changes nothing when you are dealing with a human life. If you are the father of a child (who is like 5 years old) and your wife says she's going to shoot him, you would do everything in your power to stop her, right? So why the double-standard? EverPhoenix: Please don't tell me that you honestly believe that only the mother's life will be affected by having a baby. And I can name several cases where a girl has been for abortion and the father wanted a say. That's where the whole "my body, my choice" argument came from!

I'll agree that the whole "my body, my choice" is hogwash. That effing pisses me off. Yes, the baby is part of your body, but it is its own entity as well. On the other hand, I do agree with Raini. Though a father's input is important, and a mother should respect her partner and value his opinions, in the end it is the woman who gives birth. Her decision is the one that is final, and she does have that right.

[Jason Tandro]

@EverPhoenix: Looking back, I did mistake your argument, sorry! You have a fair point. But then again (Assuming the man is responsible and sticks around) he won't be living in luxury now will he? Acording to my dear father Pregnancy makes PMS look like an ice cream social.



@psychokind: That is why parenting is such a difficult thing. We obviously can't tell before hand what our children are going to grow up like. Problem is (as cruel as this sounds) the condition of our children's life is out of our hands. It's between them and God (or whatever higher power you believe in). All we can do as parents (not to say I am one now, but speaking hypothetically) is to provide the best growing environment we can for our kids and help them work out things for themselves.

And this will also sound heartless, but I don't believe it is any humans right to end their own life. Life is a gift from God and it is our duty to protect it. However, if a person has a crippling terminal illness where they are in constant pain, I'm pretty sure the Almighty will be understanding should somebody choose to end it.

[psychokind]

Jason Tandro wrote:

@psychokind: That is why parenting is such a difficult thing. We obviously can't tell before hand what our children are going to grow up like. Problem is (as cruel as this sounds) the condition of our children's life is out of our hands. It's between them and God (or whatever higher power you believe in). All we can do as parents (not to say I am one now, but speaking hypothetically) is to provide the best growing environment we can for our kids and help them work out things for themselves. And this will also sound heartless, but I don't believe it is any humans right to end their own life. Life is a gift from God and it is our duty to protect it. However, if a person has a crippling terminal illness where they are in constant pain, I'm pretty sure the Almighty will be understanding should somebody choose to end it.

one word: amniocentesis! you can get to know a lot of stuff before the child is born. 70% chance of down-syndrome? no thank you, and fuck of wife with dirty gen pool!

suicide is murder in christianity, so you'll have to go to hell in the afterlife

[Jason Tandro]

psychokind wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: @psychokind: That is why parenting is such a difficult thing. We obviously can't tell before hand what our children are going to grow up like. Problem is (as cruel as this sounds) the condition of our children's life is out of our hands. It's between them and God (or whatever higher power you believe in). All we can do as parents (not to say I am one now, but speaking hypothetically) is to provide the best growing environment we can for our kids and help them work out things for themselves. And this will also sound heartless, but I don't believe it is any humans right to end their own life. Life is a gift from God and it is our duty to protect it. However, if a person has a crippling terminal illness where they are in constant pain, I'm pretty sure the Almighty will be understanding should somebody choose to end it. one word: amniocentesis! you can get to know a lot of stuff before the child is born. 70% chance of down-syndrome? no thank you, and fuck of wife with dirty gen pool! suicide is murder in christianity, so you'll have to go to hell in the afterlife

Oh right, because if a person isn't racially pure, what the hells the point right?

And most Christians take that doctrine as absolute and fail to understand that the Lord God is above all a merciful lord who understands us better than we could ever understand ourselves. Suicide is not always an unforgivable sin.

[psychokind]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Oh right, because if a person isn't racially pure, what the hells the point right? And most Christians take that doctrine as absolute and fail to understand that the Lord God is above all a merciful lord who understands us better than we could ever understand ourselves. Suicide is not always an unforgivable sin.

then what's the point seeing this whole thing as a christian anyway (like I said), if you think sometimes god forgives and sometimes not? everybody then might think he's an exception.

I don't think it makes sense bringing religion into this topic, I mean you could just convert to another religion before you kill yourself serious issues need a clear mind, and religion only blurries the facts.

[tay120n64]

I have to agree with Psycho on this one. Most people in the world aren't Christian, so it's kind of moot talking about absolutes and forgiveness.

[inferiare]

I think it's the Catholics that see suicide as something REALLY TERRIBLE AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL OR PURGATORY FOR DOING IT, and not really a Christian thing. Yeah sure if it IS seen as a sin, oh well, one more to add to the others I've done. :/ [/derail]

And as for another point, I have to agree with Jason: a human doesn't really have the right to end another human's life. Even at a little over a month along, if you have an ultrasound, you see a human being in the mother's womb. Infanticide is looked down upon, and that's essentially what an abortion is, as far as I'm concerned. Everyone gets up in arms when a psycho mother drowns her children in a bathtub, or they smother them in their sleep (or even better, leave them to die in their carseat, rotting in their own juices ugh that news story made me physically sick) but an abortion is a "Oh, well, whatever *shrug*" and that... well, we have some fantastic double standards, as far as I'm concerned. :/

[Mantaray]

Jason Tandro wrote:

(Just had an image of that Price is Right guy.... Remember spay or neuter your pets )

edit- whhoooaa where did the delete option go :I i don't want to be remembered for that comment.

[Jason Tandro]

@tay and psycho: I agree with you that religion somehow got thrown into this topic and was a poor idea. The fact that you refer to religion as "not serious" bothers me, but I'll let it slide.

However, I would like to point out that 2.1 billion people in the world are Christian. It is the largest religion in the world as of August 2007 (see source here.)

That's not the majority of the world of 6 billion, but that's about 1/3. Moreover, 95% of the world believe in some sort of higher power, so calling the atheistic "enlightened" is somewhat akin to calling... well I can't think of an analogy that isn't offensive, but you get my point.

[tay120n64]

Well, the main problem is that if you and I, for instance, were to get into our Christian opinions on matters like this, the debate would become subjective. Then it's no longer a debate, and no conclusion can be made.