A Sensitive Subject...

[Jason Tandro]

Most historians tend to believe that, at the birth of civilization, women were the dominant force, but upon the layout of governments and cities, coupled with the sudden realization that your life could be better if you personally owned things (innate human greed becoming more apparent and focused) women began to be viewed as the property of their husbands and thus lost that dominant status.

This is of course worded as eloquently as I can after 24 hours in the woods.

@Ratty: I believe he was talking about fantasizing about roofying a girl. (Not a particular girl, just any girl)

[Ratty Randnums]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Most historians tend to believe that, at the birth of civilization, women were the dominant force, but upon the layout of governments and cities, coupled with the sudden realization that your life could be better if you personally owned things (innate human greed becoming more apparent and focused) women began to be viewed as the property of their husbands and thus lost that dominant status. This is of course worded as eloquently as I can after 24 hours in the woods. @Ratty: I believe he was talking about fantasizing about roofying a girl. (Not a particular girl, just any girl)

Eh, that thinking is influenced by a particular worldview as much as any other. Doesn't really contridict the Marxian view though, which greately simplified still means as their labor was devalued so were they. Until they eventually were considered property yes. With the other accumulated possessions. Sad as it is.

And hm, roofies? Sounds like he has power issues. if someone is unconscious (and this is I'm told the same thing that attracts many to necrophilia) then they submit to your every whim and will completely, no resistance. Definitely a power issue.

[Jason Tandro]

Ratty Randnums wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: Most historians tend to believe that, at the birth of civilization, women were the dominant force, but upon the layout of governments and cities, coupled with the sudden realization that your life could be better if you personally owned things (innate human greed becoming more apparent and focused) women began to be viewed as the property of their husbands and thus lost that dominant status. This is of course worded as eloquently as I can after 24 hours in the woods. @Ratty: I believe he was talking about fantasizing about roofying a girl. (Not a particular girl, just any girl) Eh, that thinking is influenced by a particular worldview as much as any other. Doesn't really contridict the Marxian view though, which greately simplified still means as their labor was devalued so were they. Until they eventually were considered property yes. With the other accumulated possessions. Sad as it is. And hm, roofies? Sounds like he has power issues. if someone is unconscious (and this is I'm told the same thing that attracts many to necrophilia) then they submit to your every whim and will completely, no resistance. Definitely a power issue.

I was eating a pepperoni pizza when you mentioned necrophilia. Thanks.

[Miss Prime Blue]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Okay, I totally wouldn't have brought this up if my friends and I hadn't been discussing this the other day, but are fantasies as bad as the actual act? For instance, the one we were using is my friend made a comment about how he would sometimes fantasize about (and this is where it gets sensitive) raping somebody. We jumped on him saying that it was a little messed up, but it got me wondering. I mean I know there is rape fantasy roleplay, but it's not the same as wishing to do this to somebody. Frankly I think consentual fantasy is fine, but wanting to take away that right from somebody else, even just in your mind, is too sick for even me, the Bondage freak.

Well, I would suppose the fantasy of raping someone feels good, because it feels nice to have that sort of control over someone.

But remember, being a rapist is bad. Don't be rapin'.

Your friend will probably be meeting with Chris Hansen from Dateline NBC pretty soon.

[Jason Tandro]

LOL. We actually joke about that all the time.

"What are you doing? She's 15."

And yeah, the fantasy when you're with somebody is cool (frankly my ex-gf was hot as hell with how... ahem... cooperative she was), but my concern is that thought process that could lead to violent behavior.

[Ratty Randnums]

Jason Tandro wrote:

I was eating a pepperoni pizza when you mentioned necrophilia. Thanks.

I am Bene Gesserit, I live to serve.

Oh wait, have to be female for that, bah

[Battle-Jesus]

Jason Tandro wrote:

LOL. We actually joke about that all the time. "What are you doing? She's 15." And yeah, the fantasy when you're with somebody is cool (frankly my ex-gf was hot as hell with how... ahem... cooperative she was), but my concern is that thought process that could lead to violent behavior.

Keep this in mind, Japan, a country in which child pornography and rape were quite legal to manufacture(as in stage it, not real) in any form of pornography has a yearly rape rate 2/36 the rate of America, were both are banned to portray in pornography and both are completely and utterly hated by the public.

[Miss Prime Blue]

Freedan, the Dark Knight wrote:

Fantasized rape, from what I understand, is actually rather common in both men and women. Personally, I would say fantasized rape is more about a desire for power and control (that is, if the fantasizer is the one doing the act... obviously, the opposite is true for the 'victim'). Maybe he has a desire for those things because he doesn't have much of it in reality? (I have no idea, and to be honest, don't much care... just suggesting) In fantasy, you have control... you choose how everything pans out. As long as it stays a fantasy (or at least roleplay between consenting adults), it's not a problem. But real rape isn't about control, or even sex... just violence. It's unbridled aggression. The rapist is only out to hurt, and that makes it wrong.

This is exactly true. It's nice to see someone get it right (i've been in many debate comms and forums where they simply did not understand the exact reasons.)

Quote:

I, too, think that this meant most women want to get dominated from time to time. NOT in a fetish way, and not by physical abuse. I think it's more about psychological force, stimulating the human danger sense and making her feel pressured. it's all about trust then, she has to let loose and hand over all control to you.

Really? women "subconciously" want to get attacked? from where do you form this argument? sure, women do want to be dominated sometimes, but that's also provided that no real, true harm will come to them.

[SoulBlazerFan]

Battle-Jesus wrote:

Saying fantasies are as bad as committing the act is like saying playing GTA is as bad as actually going out and wrecking havoc. The only people who believe such are fools, in my eyes

No, you're right. But perspective is the issue. I'm not sure who had said it- but the fantasy of inflicting harm on someone else is a sin in the eyes of he Lord. Not to say I agree- I'm a lapsed Christian for the most part, and have little to no actual contact with the Bible save for Genesis and Revelations- like my writing, it's about the beginning and the end, and the middle-man seems not to interest me.

Do I feel it's a sin to fantasize certain deviant behavior? Absolutely. Do I fantisize about deviant behavior? Absolutely. Have I ever partaken in deviant behavior? Nothing sexual, I've never killed anyone, but like just about everyone else, I have committed my share of crimes. I'm not perfect, and I realize that. In the end though, I guess we'll all find out, won't we? Just deserts, afterall.

[Yet One More Idiot]

I personally would say that fantasising is okay, regardless of what is being fantasised about. Thought and Action are two separate things. That's why we have the ability to censor what we say and do.

Being an Atheist, I don't believe in the concept of sin as it is mentioned in the Bible; only Right or Wrong (at the legal, and the personally moral levels). There's things that are legal, and those that are illegal. If it's illegal, then that's the end of the matter anyway, society's laws have been broken. If it's legal, you have to make up your mind whether you think the action is okay by your own personal standards, and of course deal with whether other people think it's okay by their personal standards too.

So, is it okay to fantasise about going out and wrecking up the city? Sure...as long as don't actually DO it, 'cos that then crosses moral and legal boundaries.
Again, is it okay to fantasise about children, or to beat yourself off to lolicon? Yes, I say - but NEVER go out and molest an actual child, 'cos again, that is really illegal; even other criminals hate child molesters, that's how morally "low" its considered.

....I sound seriously morally grey right about now, don't I?

[SoulBlazerFan]

Yomi's Evil Twin Intern wrote:

Again, is it okay to fantasise about children, or to beat yourself off to lolicon? Yes, I say - but NEVER go out and molest an actual child, 'cos again, that is really illegal; even other criminals hate child molesters, that's how morally "low" its considered. ....I sound seriously morally grey right about now, don't I?

I can't say I've ever fantasized about children- but you also didn't quite define your boundries. Are you talking about like, 14 and up? 13 and down? I'm not quite comfortable with either, but to each their own. However, I do feel it's morally wrong to fantasize about children, at all, in any sexual forum- I don't care if it's porn, hentai, whatever- there's reasons about that, a certain level of moral judgment needed.
I don't judge other people. But that doesn't mean I can't disagree with your statement, either. I find either act, whether fantasy or reality- quite disturbing. Maybe it's because I have younger siblings? Maybe it's because the thought is sickening- especially since there are people I know who have been molested as young children, one at the age of two.
Fucking two years old.
So my apologies if I offend you in any way. Our minds are at different ends of this spectrum.

[Yet One More Idiot]

In that example, I *deliberately* didn't place any limits on the fantasy child. Because it's just that, a fantasy.

My main point though, was that to my mind it really doesn't matter what you fantasise - so long as any illegal or extremely immoral acts (which might not get you convicted, but could end up with you getting lynched) only occur in your head. Don't let it spill into the real world.
This is just my opinion on the so-called b/s of "thought crime" though.

1984, we really do not need.