Cloning

[Freedan]

Jason Tandro wrote:

The first line was my assumption of what EverPhoenix presumed, not my own opinion. My belief is that God gave us the capability to do wrong, but wants us to do right. I am simply using this to decry the belief that "Since we CAN do this, then that must make it OKAY for us to do it." EverPhoenix said that God gave us the ability to create life and therefore it must be okay to do so, and therein lies the flaw.

Fair enough; I suppose I just misunderstood.

Though personally, I'm more of the thought that if God wanted us to do right that much, he would have made us incapable of anything other than right. If he were perfect, he wouldn't have made imperfect creations.

Anyway, I'm getting away from the topic, so I'll give the God-talk a rest.

Valerie Valens wrote:

Here's the beauty of it, morals change over time. In the future, there will be a use for cloning a whole human, perhaps to transfer the minds of the original over,

Hypothetically, if Hitler had been cloned and his mind transferred over, would it still seem like a good idea?

If it were possible to transfer the mind to a new body, that's virtually immortality. I stand by my claim that people aren't meant for that.

[Yet One More Idiot]

Freedan, the Dark Knight wrote:

Hypothetically, if Hitler had been cloned and his mind transferred over, would it still seem like a good idea? If it were possible to transfer the mind to a new body, that's virtually immortality. I stand by my claim that people aren't meant for that.

I invoke Godwin's Law.

[EverPhoenix]

Jason Tandro wrote:

EverPhoenix said that God gave us the ability to create life and therefore it must be okay to do so, and therein lies the flaw.

but my argument is the opposite. if God didnt want us to do that at all, we wouldnt be able to do it. if humans are able to do that, then its up to our free will to choose for ourselves. and we seem to be leaning towards messing with biology.

in terms of logic:

let A be what we can do, and B what is ok

if !A then !B,
...but it doesnt necessarily mean that..

if A then B.

that only applies if A and B are the same.

in more relevant terms, just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok. if we cant do it, it wasnt meant to happen

[SoulBlazerFan]

EverPhoenix wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: EverPhoenix said that God gave us the ability to create life and therefore it must be okay to do so, and therein lies the flaw. but my argument is the opposite. if God didnt want us to do that at all, we wouldnt be able to do it. if humans are able to do that, then its up to our free will to choose for ourselves. and we seem to be leaning towards messing with biology. in terms of logic: let A be what we can do, and B what is ok if !A then !B, ...but it doesnt necessarily mean that.. if A then B. that only applies if A and B are the same. in more relevant terms, just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok. if we cant do it, it wasnt meant to happen

Well is it really a matter of free will or ethics? Cause as far as we know, they haven't cloned humans. At least, that's what they've told us. For all we know, out there somewhere lives a human clone. Hell, maybe a handful. Maybe even more than that. The government and science know better than the general populace, afterall.

And btw, God will always be brought into a Cloning debate, whether the original intention was ethics or not, Yomi. Alot of the reason people are so against cloning is simply because, would we not be playing God by doing so? Alot of person ethics come from religious beliefs, mind you, so God will always be placed into the debate, whether people like it or not.

[psychokind]

I'm all in for cloning. especially spare parts depot clones. cloning animals doesn't make too much sense, since they reproduce themselves pretty fast.

[Jason Tandro]

@Freedan: Well that's where religion comes in. God wants us to be a perfect as we can be, but as long as we are mortal we are going to sin. It's just a fact of life. The point of Earth is to test us. I could prattle on all day long, but I'll leave it at that.

EverPhoenix wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: EverPhoenix said that God gave us the ability to create life and therefore it must be okay to do so, and therein lies the flaw. but my argument is the opposite. if God didnt want us to do that at all, we wouldnt be able to do it. if humans are able to do that, then its up to our free will to choose for ourselves. and we seem to be leaning towards messing with biology. in terms of logic: let A be what we can do, and B what is ok if !A then !B, ...but it doesnt necessarily mean that.. if A then B. that only applies if A and B are the same. in more relevant terms, just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok. if we cant do it, it wasnt meant to happen

Okay, then I again invoke my original argument. You'e saying that God wanted us to create weapons of mass destruction? Exactly this:

"just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok".

That's my whole point in a nutshell.

[Yet One More Idiot]

Jason Tandro wrote:

EverPhoenix wrote: Jason Tandro wrote: EverPhoenix said that God gave us the ability to create life and therefore it must be okay to do so, and therein lies the flaw. but my argument is the opposite. if God didnt want us to do that at all, we wouldnt be able to do it. if humans are able to do that, then its up to our free will to choose for ourselves. and we seem to be leaning towards messing with biology. in terms of logic: let A be what we can do, and B what is ok if !A then !B, ...but it doesnt necessarily mean that.. if A then B. that only applies if A and B are the same. in more relevant terms, just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok. if we cant do it, it wasnt meant to happen Okay, then I again invoke my original argument. You'e saying that God wanted us to create weapons of mass destruction? Exactly this: "just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok". That's my whole point in a nutshell.

Actually Jason, I believe that what EverPhoenix is saying is "if we can't do something, then god didn't want us to do it. But this does not imply that because we CAN do something, that god DOES want us to do it."

It's all a matter of logical negation. When you negate the parts of a logical statement (A implies B), you negate the A and the B and *flip* the implication arrow around. Therefore:

Something we can't do => god doesn't want us to do it
THEN
God does want us to do it => something we CAN do

Constructing the statement "something we CAN do => god wants us to do it" is a use of false negation in the above.

(finally, that course I took in Logic at university comes into its own! )

[Freedan]

Yomi's Evil Twin Intern wrote:

Freedan, the Dark Knight wrote: Hypothetically, if Hitler had been cloned and his mind transferred over, would it still seem like a good idea? If it were possible to transfer the mind to a new body, that's virtually immortality. I stand by my claim that people aren't meant for that. I invoke Godwin's Law.

You know, I was even going to use a different analogy, and changed my tune at the last minute. Though to be fair, Godwin's Law generally covers inappropriate or hyperbolic comparisons, and mine was only theoretical.

Regardless, scratch the Hitler thing and replace it with "despicable, murdering criminal" of your choice. Suppose the world is revisited by Saddam, or Kim Jong-Il lives on for several more generations. I hear he's kind of an asshole.

[EverPhoenix]

Yomi's Evil Twin Intern wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: EverPhoenix wrote: Jason Tandro wrote: EverPhoenix said that God gave us the ability to create life and therefore it must be okay to do so, and therein lies the flaw. but my argument is the opposite. if God didnt want us to do that at all, we wouldnt be able to do it. if humans are able to do that, then its up to our free will to choose for ourselves. and we seem to be leaning towards messing with biology. in terms of logic: let A be what we can do, and B what is ok if !A then !B, ...but it doesnt necessarily mean that.. if A then B. that only applies if A and B are the same. in more relevant terms, just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok. if we cant do it, it wasnt meant to happen Okay, then I again invoke my original argument. You'e saying that God wanted us to create weapons of mass destruction? Exactly this: "just coz we can do it doesnt mean its ok". That's my whole point in a nutshell. Actually Jason, I believe that what EverPhoenix is saying is "if we can't do something, then god didn't want us to do it. But this does not imply that because we CAN do something, that god DOES want us to do it." It's all a matter of logical negation. When you negate the parts of a logical statement (A implies B), you negate the A and the B and *flip* the implication arrow around. Therefore: Something we can't do => god doesn't want us to do it THEN God does want us to do it => something we CAN do Constructing the statement "something we CAN do => god wants us to do it" is a use of false negation in the above. (finally, that course I took in Logic at university comes into its own! )

that sums it up very nicely, thanks YETI

[Jason Tandro]

YETI... that's got a ring to it.

[EverPhoenix]

i think its what he intended when choosing the name. or so ive read

[Yet One More Idiot]

It was what I intended actually. I was thinking of creatures that feature in Terranigma, and the Yeti of Eklemata came to mind.