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Jason Tandro
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PostJason Tandro Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am   Post subject: Concentration Camps Reply with quote

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I initally posted this on my Facebook but deleted it within an hour, mainly because I realize that it's a touch tone deaf and makes the current crisis about me. That said, it's shit I've been struggling with about my own country and I feel leaving it completely unexpressed isn't helpful either so I may as well post it here amongst people who have a fairly decent understanding of who I am.

--


You'll forgive me for passing over the holiday this year round. I'm not feeling especially "Patriotic", at least to use the right's definition of it, which seems to amount to little more than star-spangled bootlicking.

I find myself grappling with intense feelings of hatred for my own country and those I must begrudgingly accept as my countrymen by the mere fact of geography, but with whom I feel a complete and utter lack of kinship. I struggle with the desire to remain reasonable and to not sacrifice composure to emotion, and yet at the same time, I cannot help but feel that absolute indignant outrage is the only sensible reaction to the atrocities we currently are witnessing on our southern border.

This is all too similar a line of reasoning to those Pro-Life advocates who may, quite reasonably, argue that their only concern is in that of the unborn child. An argument I may not agree with, but one that I can see the honest intentions of up to a point. It is when I see the party most associated with this philosophy now showing absolute indifference to the deaths of children do I begin to see the narrow, hypocritical line of reasoning possessed by some (though certainly not all) who have professed this. That Pro-Life truly means to them Pro-Birth and that the welfare of children beyond that point is well out of their care. God will, or will not, provide for them and they can sleep quite well at night because they have the "right" viewpoint about it all.

While besuited armchair academics argue about the semantics of the situation, and worry about whether or not the term "concentration camp" is too "emotional" or "hyperbolic", children are being torn from their families and dying while those charged with their protection are mocking their state. I find myself balancing the urges pulling me towards revolution and hoping for a peaceful alternative. But at what cost does delaying the inevitable come at? Why, when our instinct tells us "Do Something" are we so often convinced that something will be done by others, or that it is not our place, or that the power is out of our hands? Am I not just as guilty of those I so harshly criticized above of being completely hypocritical because I am willing to act up to a point, but not to a point where I put myself in actual harms way? Am I just leaning on the correctness of my viewpoint? Do I hold up as a shield the knowledge that I have what I am absolutely certain of in my heart to be the truth, and yet lack the conviction -- or am so well-trained by the increasingly ineffective mantra of "bipartisanship" -- to do anything about it?

At what point will "civil" disobedience cease being enough? Will I get to tell my daughter years from now that I did what was right, or that I sat on the sidelines pleading impotence and helplessness?

People are dying in concentration camps and their deaths are being celebrated by some, excused by others and tacitly accepted by the indifference of still more. Thousands will be hearing the celebrations of "the land of the free" tonight in cramped cells, drinking toilet water and watching their loved ones die while good little SS soldiers mock them.

Forgive me if I don't feel like celebrating the achievements of this country while another of its great atrocities is happening before our very eyes.
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psychokind
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Postpsychokind Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:09 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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wait a second... am I getting this right? you're against pro life not because they are against abortion but because they disregard the wellbeing of the children that would get born if abortion was illegal? and that again you blame on the state to a point where you compare it to concentration camps and think about revolting?

I'm sorry but I think you somewhere got lost in between. there might or will be cases of adults neglecting their children because they initially wanted them aborted. but there are adults neglecting children everywhere, and (shouldn't an american be explaing that to an european and not vice versa?) in the end it's in the responsibility of the individuum to care for their children or give them away instead of neglecting them. you also exclude the fact, that birth and pregnancy influence the hormonal balance of the mother (and father), so that aborting or not aborting is even more so a difficult factor to weigh in in cases of childe abuse or sth.

I advise you to visit an actual concentracion camp sometime. I don't think you know what it means if a civilised state decides to actively kill Eek! if you want to become active, you can work for the government in social facilites. or become a foster parent. or go around town and slap people in the face who stare on their mobile phones while their children cry in the buggy.
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Jason Tandro
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PostJason Tandro Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:33 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Ah the Pro-Life thing was actually only an incidental comparison and far from the main point of my pedantry above, but that's my issue, not yours. Allow me to clarify my position:

1. MAJOR POINT: I'm referring to the concentration camps on our southern border for refugees. I realize, of course, who I am speaking to on this issue so I won't discount your opinion on the matter entirely, but while the deaths in these camps have not been "active" per se, the conditions are nonetheless inexcusable. The more sedate term "internment camp" has also been used. Either way, I and many within my country find the state of being deplorable (seriously if you haven't been keeping up, look into the conditions these people are being kept in).

2. MINOR POINT THAT GOT CONFLATED: I'm not against Pro-Life, in fact I try to explain that I can actually respect the viewpoint (hell, I used to be fully Pro-Life myself as numerous old arguments in this very forum will attest to). My issue is when supposedly Pro-Life people come out and brush aside the deaths of children as they've been doing in droves like this. Sorry, not sorry, if you're okay with children dying at the hands of the state, you're not "pro-Life" you're "pro-Birth". Again, this was an incidental comparison based on the heavily right-leaning support of these camps we have and I wasn't meaning to befuddle the issue, but I clearly need to learn how to better structure an argument.

Very Happy

Hope that straightens things up.
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Postpsychokind Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:23 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Jason Tandro wrote:


Very Happy

Hope that straightens things up.


absolutely, talk about written speech Very Happy

well okay, in terms of the internment camp you're simplyfying things. I have another radical point of view here, given that I basically work at "boarder patrol", or rather whats left of it in a country without borders: deportation.

I'll try to keep it as short and simple as I can in a foreign tongue:

a state or a souvereign nation may act humanitarian to a point it sets itsself. in a democratic nation, the peoples representatives set these boundaries. all is fine until a situation occures that defies the parameters the nation set rules for.

now to apply this on boarder protection, there will always be a point when people get treated badly or even die. on one side of the boarder or the other. this is the logical conclusion of individuals that don't want to be treated as a large group but form a large group that exceeds governmental parameters and therefore blows up the system that they want to be allied with but actually make themselves an enemy of just by trying to ally themselves Confused

simple example: you have tents for a thousand refugees, but 100,000 come. every refugee wants to be treated with the standard he came to expect, but the administration treats him as part of the 100,000 he came with.

treating foreign individuals below the standard of treating yourself and people in your group is a basic human action that shows through for every one uf us privileged westerners.
why not give half your money to people somewhere to buy food? why not stop your space program to end world hunger with the saved money? why not rescue all refugees in the mediterrainian?

of course that's not saying that putting up more tents and showers in the internment camps at the boarder would put stress on the richest nation on earth. but if you put up more tents and showers, more refugees will start their journey. don't repeat the mistakes you see made here in germany or sweden. Trump is absolutely right in calling us shitholes. seeing the world through the eyes of a simple man is not always a bad thing.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/adolfoflores/trump-defend-immigrants-border-detention-conditions

everything he says is correct. I can't stress this enough. we had the same complaints about living conditions all the time, too. and you have no idea what kind of luxury we offer here to destitute people.

my grandparents build up a country that was destroyed by basically the whole world. they didn't leave the country, they didn't kill, they didn't become corrupt cops or politicians, they just helped everyone around them and were good people. that's how you improve your living conditions, not by fleeing your country. I thank god they don't have to witness what happens to what they built.
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PostValerie Valens Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:28 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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What's going on in the ICE camps is absolutely no different to what went on in the Holocaust during the 3rd reich. It is absolutely disgusting, and the people perpetuating this atrocity should be strung up and left to hang for the vultures to feed on.

A lot of Americans don't get that we ARE at fascism, the well of palingenetic ultranationalism is very much alive, and a lot of high-charisma "thought-leaders" like Ben Shapiro constantly proselytize the "value" of anti-intellectualism, hatred of the other and quite frankly, promote eugenics against minorities via stochastic terrorism.

Though I wonder how it is any surprise since America itself was founded on the subjugation and genocide of indigenous people.
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Postpsychokind Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:42 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Valerie Valens wrote:
What's going on in the ICE camps is absolutely no different to what went on in the Holocaust during the 3rd reich. It is absolutely disgusting, and the people perpetuating this atrocity should be strung up and left to hang for the vultures to feed on.


stating something like this is a statutory offence in Germany and many other countries. comparing the border situation in the US to the holocaust would mean to relativize the holocaust, and is in fact punishable by law. there are a large number of cases where people tried using the holocaust to compare to situations they deemed inhumane and even if they are by objective standards (e. g. the bombing of Dresden 1945), it's still considered a devaluation of the unspeakable horros of the holocaust.
I strongly advise to not try to fit the holocaust in any category you think you can imagine.
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PostValerie Valens Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:56 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Normally, I wouldn't, but in this situation, it very much fits. Look up what's going in in the ICE detention camps, this is how it starts.
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Postinferiare Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:26 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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While normally I wouldn't be diving into this (just moderating) I do want to point out that there were investigations into the forced and non-consented sterilizations of migrant women in the camps (afaik they're still ongoing; I only see news stories from the very tail end of Sept. and the beginning of Oct. looking for stories on it.) I know that was something that was done during the Nazi camp days.

Just because our ICE agents aren't doing the really terrible unspeakable horrors that happened to a lot of those in the camps, that doesn't mean that they aren't doing terrible things that weren't done at places like Auschwitz and the like leading up to the big stuff. Another contender for "terrible shit that was done in concentration camps" goes to Unit 731, and while they're definitely not to those levels (I'm keeping this not so much a visceral horror story, but if you look them up be warned it's pretty disturbing) either, it doesn't mean they won't get to that point eventually if left unchecked. Considering Trump rolled out a "Zero Tolerance" policy on illegal border crossing/trafficking, a lot of people have been living in shit conditions, given rotten food or not enough food and water, too many people packed into one room than should be (i.e. the "cages" that are talked about that have 10+ people in them were designed for ONE person to be in.) As a whole, Trump and his whole Presidency has been compared to Hitler for a lot of reasons, and those reasons being so many things that have been done, either by him or his most devout followers and anyone he's appointed (or appointed and fired as is most of the 4 years lol) are following a lot of what Hitler did before he rose to power. Some common threads of what fascists (not just Hitler, but other leaders who had coups or forced their way into power) found their way on to the early warning signs of fascism list, compiled by someone who noticed these common things - things that are all ticked down on the list right now irt Trump. Right now, he's screeching about a "fraudulent election" but has done all of these things thusfar. His modern day concentration camps aren't really out of place for him.

To be fair, though, the cages being used were implemented by Obama and not Trump. Trump's just using them to the extreme. Also to note, I am all for border protections and immigration reform in the states - but our problem at the border right now ain't it. It's not Holocaust levels, not yet. But if it remains an unchecked issue, I really do believe it could go that far, as it is already heading in that direction.

Also, I'm hoping you don't get in any trouble re: talking about all this, psychokind. I know the laws in Germany are really strict, but I'm not sure if they would extend to online or as long as you aren't saying shit like "Hail Hitler" in a serious way (that was not serious, of course. Hitler was a terrible human being.)
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psychokind
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Postpsychokind Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:58 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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inferiare wrote:
While normally I wouldn't be diving into this (just moderating) I do want to point out that there were investigations into the forced and non-consented sterilizations of migrant women in the camps (afaik they're still ongoing; I only see news stories from the very tail end of Sept. and the beginning of Oct. looking for stories on it.) I know that was something that was done during the Nazi camp days.

Just because our ICE agents aren't doing the really terrible unspeakable horrors that happened to a lot of those in the camps, that doesn't mean that they aren't doing terrible things that weren't done at places like Auschwitz and the like leading up to the big stuff. Another contender for "terrible shit that was done in concentration camps" goes to Unit 731, and while they're definitely not to those levels (I'm keeping this not so much a visceral horror story, but if you look them up be warned it's pretty disturbing) either, it doesn't mean they won't get to that point eventually if left unchecked. Considering Trump rolled out a "Zero Tolerance" policy on illegal border crossing/trafficking, a lot of people have been living in shit conditions, given rotten food or not enough food and water, too many people packed into one room than should be (i.e. the "cages" that are talked about that have 10+ people in them were designed for ONE person to be in.) As a whole, Trump and his whole Presidency has been compared to Hitler for a lot of reasons, and those reasons being so many things that have been done, either by him or his most devout followers and anyone he's appointed (or appointed and fired as is most of the 4 years lol) are following a lot of what Hitler did before he rose to power. Some common threads of what fascists (not just Hitler, but other leaders who had coups or forced their way into power) found their way on to the early warning signs of fascism list, compiled by someone who noticed these common things - things that are all ticked down on the list right now irt Trump. Right now, he's screeching about a "fraudulent election" but has done all of these things thusfar. His modern day concentration camps aren't really out of place for him.

To be fair, though, the cages being used were implemented by Obama and not Trump. Trump's just using them to the extreme. Also to note, I am all for border protections and immigration reform in the states - but our problem at the border right now ain't it. It's not Holocaust levels, not yet. But if it remains an unchecked issue, I really do believe it could go that far, as it is already heading in that direction.

Also, I'm hoping you don't get in any trouble re: talking about all this, psychokind. I know the laws in Germany are really strict, but I'm not sure if they would extend to online or as long as you aren't saying shit like "Hail Hitler" in a serious way (that was not serious, of course. Hitler was a terrible human being.)


I get were you're both coming from. maybe you should start by watching a documentary about the holocaust. you can start with this, the english captions should be enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpQrI94ad8U if you have to turn this off, you should be made aware that this only shows what was left AFTER they cleaned up. I stronlgy advise NOT to watch this and just stop comparing antyhing to the holocaust, in all seriousness.

and if you're ever in europe, visit one of the concentration camps. trust me, you will look back on your comparisons and it will make your toes curl.
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Postinferiare Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:37 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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I have a feeling I know exactly what you linked to, and I've already seen it.

I'm only saying it is GETTING to the point of where it went back in WW2. It is slowly getting worse where we're committing minor atrocities compared to what happened. Being on the road =/= full on Holocaust, no, but the fact that we're starting down that road with the possible forced sterilization of women, the fact that the living conditions are terrible for men, women, children with hardly any food or drink or just straight up rotted food... we're going down the path.

No, we aren't heavy machinery shovel pushing bodies out yet into shallow graves, but the fact that we could go that route is what is worrying. As I said we may be closer to Unit 731, a similar problem to concentration camps there, but willingly going down that path is the problem.
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