TerraEarth Forums


Is morality objective, subjective or something else?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TerraEarth Forums Forum Index -> Debate Island
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jason Tandro
The Undying TE Fanatic

Level 20: Guardian of Pandora
Rank: Moderator

Moderator


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 6360
Gems 8,053
Location: Tiptoeing the line between confidence and arrogance.

PostJason Tandro Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:35 pm   Post subject: Is morality objective, subjective or something else? Reply with quote

Reply with quote
Why not stir the juices of discussion in this simmering cauldron of content? Like all good discussion topics, this one started when I was drinking and playing poker with my housemates. Four shots into an eight shot night we ended up discussing our thoughts on morality, luck and the grand questions of the universe.

Mind you, seven shots into that night we would be arguing how many bacteria were on our respective manhoods, so it wasn't a night all wasted. Drunk

Anyways, my take on it is this. Admittedly the wording for this I'm borrowing (read: stealing) from Matt Dillahunty.

While I don't think there is an objective foundation for morality in the larger sense, I believe that within subjective goals you can make objective decisions about what is and is not conducive to that goal. For instance if your goal is "well-being" we can make an objective determination about what enhances and detracts from well-being. Though there are also certainly subjective arguments as well. Does living a certain lifestyle benefit or hinder "well-being"?

Generally I believe that whatever guarantees the maximum freedom to the most people is generally a good thing so long as that "freedom" does not include actions which could harm others.

Anyway, that's my take on it. How about you all?
_________________
Support me on Patreon!

Rest in peace, old avatar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
psychokind
fuck yeah!

Level 19: Soul Blazer
Rank: Resident

Resident


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 3390
Gems 10,368
Location: Germany

Postpsychokind Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:28 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply with quote
oh my debating with jason - makes me feel almost nostalgic Very Happy quite a difficult topic, but one that's quite newsworthy nowadays.

first my take on this (pretty tough in a foreign language):

morality is first and foremost subjective. it becomes somewhat objective when a human group finds common ground on it's basic moralities. easy examples would be killing without necessity or helping others without reward. most often this basic morales find their objectiveness in laws in societies.

we just today had an moral-questioning event taken place in germany (all over the news).
protesters against climate change glued themselves onto roads for several months now. yesterday an ambulance / fire truck couldn't get through to a woman overrun by a cement mixer. the medics and fireman on site didn't get the equipment they needed and the rescue took way longer and was way more complicated than necessary.
today she died.
the clime activists justified their actions (at least before she died) with their goal having higher moral value (fighting against doom caused by pollution) than the thousands of people getting inconvinienced by their gluing to streets. so far, they had loads of supporters and loads of enemies. it will be interesting to see if this changes after today.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jason Tandro
The Undying TE Fanatic

Level 20: Guardian of Pandora
Rank: Moderator

Moderator


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 6360
Gems 8,053
Location: Tiptoeing the line between confidence and arrogance.

PostJason Tandro Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:53 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply with quote
psychokind wrote:
oh my debating with jason - makes me feel almost nostalgic Very Happy


Ah well I'm rather a different person from way back when, and hopefully a bit less of a clod. :haha:

Quote:

morality is first and foremost subjective. it becomes somewhat objective when a human group finds common ground on it's basic moralities. easy examples would be killing without necessity or helping others without reward. most often this basic morales find their objectiveness in laws in societies.


I think we more or less have a similar opinion on this then. While we as people may have vastly different baselines of what we consider moral or immoral, once we have determined an overall moral objective: be it "well-being", "purity", "greater good", etc etc we can make objective determination based on this, at least somewhat.


Quote:

we just today had an moral-questioning event taken place in germany (all over the news).
protesters against climate change glued themselves onto roads for several months now. yesterday an ambulance / fire truck couldn't get through to a woman overrun by a cement mixer. the medics and fireman on site didn't get the equipment they needed and the rescue took way longer and was way more complicated than necessary.
today she died.
the clime activists justified their actions (at least before she died) with their goal having higher moral value (fighting against doom caused by pollution) than the thousands of people getting inconvinienced by their gluing to streets. so far, they had loads of supporters and loads of enemies. it will be interesting to see if this changes after today.


In regards to all of this, I have intensely conflicted feelings about this. First and foremost, it's horrid that this woman died as a result of all of this.

While I can understand the mindset of those who block access to public roads and facilities in an effort to draw attention to their cause, I still find myself annoyed by this manner of protest and if anything it makes me less sympathetic to the plight of those protesting.

It has been said that many times the people who are protesting for civil rights and liberties often find themselves without another means of protest. I would hate to try and tell a member of an oppressed minority that they must protest in this or that manner because I believe it will always violate "Decorum" for the oppressed to speak out.

However, often these protests target not the general perpetrators of the oppression but the layman who often has little if any power over societal change. When it comes down to blocking emergency access, I am firmly against this. Moreover the fact that somebody in my country has legislated that protestors are allowed to bar my access to a location for a set number of seconds sticks in my craw a bit because... well I didn't consent to have my way obstructed.

That said my personal grievances against a protest method are not justifiable cause to deny them outright, and again oftentimes people are left with no other recourse...

However:

I feel like climate protestors go for the most extreme and shocking methods of all. They are not wrong about the effects climate change is having on our planet, but frankly more often than not I find their efforts turn people against them rather than winning hearts and minds. I'm reminded of the "Just Say No To Oil" people or whatever who are protesting climate change by *checks notes* vandalizing art.

Again, does this draw attention to the people in power who could make a change. Hell, does this harm them? If they were targeting the right people, the people in power, I'd be okay with some drastic measures, but again there is this feeling that they are just picking on people who they have access to because directly going after the powerful is a) difficult and b) dangerous.

I mean yeah, if we don't get our climate situation under control (we're already well into climate destabilization so, doomsday clock is tick-tick-ticking) we're royally fucked. But this should have never happened and now all that's likely to happen is conservative voices are going to capitalize on this woman's death to push for stricter laws regarding protest, not to mention win the favor of middle-of-the-road people by saying "you don't want to side with THESE people, do you?"

It's an ugly situation all around.
_________________
Support me on Patreon!

Rest in peace, old avatar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
inferiare
TerraEarth Historian

Level 20: Guardian of Pandora
Rank: Administrator

Administrator


Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6763
Gems 14,471
Location: Under a rock, which is under a bigger rock...

Postinferiare Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:07 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply with quote
This is the sort of stuff that makes sympathetic villains interesting to me.

Morally, it's wrong.

Subjectively, I see why they want to do what they're doing.

Cool motive, still murder (depending on the villain - sometimes it's not murder but something else.)

In the examples given by PK, while yes, protest to your heart's content on things that you feel passionate about, I always feel that inconveniencing others, especially in the way of "well, who cares about one person, our cause affects more than just one person" is always shitty. You'll get more people agreeing with your cause if you don't inconvenience them tbh.
_________________

Presia firle anw faura,
van futare parge iem...
Melenas.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Windows Live Messenger
Jason Tandro
The Undying TE Fanatic

Level 20: Guardian of Pandora
Rank: Moderator

Moderator


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 6360
Gems 8,053
Location: Tiptoeing the line between confidence and arrogance.

PostJason Tandro Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:59 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply with quote
inferiare wrote:
This is the sort of stuff that makes sympathetic villains interesting to me.

Morally, it's wrong.

Subjectively, I see why they want to do what they're doing.

Cool motive, still murder (depending on the villain - sometimes it's not murder but something else.)


So I agree with all of this.

Quote:

In the examples given by PK, while yes, protest to your heart's content on things that you feel passionate about, I always feel that inconveniencing others, especially in the way of "well, who cares about one person, our cause affects more than just one person" is always shitty. You'll get more people agreeing with your cause if you don't inconvenience them tbh.


And I agree with this, with the caveat that I understand why sometimes people find no other option but inconveniencing people. Particularly for the oppressed. It is very easy for us to turn a blind eye to other peoples suffering without even realizing it. Still there has to be a happy medium that doesn't endanger lives, especially for something like the climate change debate.
_________________
Support me on Patreon!

Rest in peace, old avatar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
inferiare
TerraEarth Historian

Level 20: Guardian of Pandora
Rank: Administrator

Administrator


Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6763
Gems 14,471
Location: Under a rock, which is under a bigger rock...

Postinferiare Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:33 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply with quote
(EDIT: HEY THIS IS JT. OH GOD RAINI I FUCKED IT UP I CLICKED ON EDIT WHEN I MEANT TO CLICK QUOTE GREAT GOOGLY-MOOGLY IT'S ALL GONE TO SHIT I'M SORRY!)
_________________

Presia firle anw faura,
van futare parge iem...
Melenas.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Windows Live Messenger
Jason Tandro
The Undying TE Fanatic

Level 20: Guardian of Pandora
Rank: Moderator

Moderator


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 6360
Gems 8,053
Location: Tiptoeing the line between confidence and arrogance.

PostJason Tandro Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:03 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

Reply with quote
inferiare wrote:
(EDIT: HEY THIS IS JT. OH GOD RAINI I FUCKED IT UP I CLICKED ON EDIT WHEN I MEANT TO CLICK QUOTE GREAT GOOGLY-MOOGLY IT'S ALL GONE TO SHIT I'M SORRY!)


Jesus Christ, Jason, stop responding to the forum when you are doped up on pain medicine. I am sorry Raini, I borked your previous post, but I managed to save the key response which I will respond to below.

FML...



inferiare wrote:

I also feel this. If it's not going to endanger anyone, go for it. Annoy people. But when you endanger lives and get someone killed, I don't care what your movement is.


I understand you mean like in ordinary circumstances in general civilized society but in relation to our initial premise of morality being subjective, it's time to drop year one pop psychology on everybody.

The trolley problem. If we have two actions liable to cause harm to people on either side of an issue, do we go for what brings benefit to the most number of people or do we look at the merit of the situation outside of the numbers.

I tend to not care about harm coming to oppressors. But I also believe violence of any kind should be a last resort when all other methods of peaceful resolution have been exhausted. Sadly, in the US, it feels like peaceful coexistence keeps slipping away from us.

So at what point is violence an acceptable response to oppression? Do we just have a blanket "Don't harm others" policy or is there a certain line?


PS: I'm sorry to be pedantic, but we gotta keep a conversation flowing. Laughing
_________________
Support me on Patreon!

Rest in peace, old avatar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TerraEarth Forums Forum Index -> Debate Island All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum