Family Planning

[Jason Tandro]

This is an extension of a debate that began in the White/Straight Pride Parade Thread.

sora-mage wrote:

If you're hetero, yay. Just don't give birth to a billion kids at once (yeah, people are still going on after 10 fricken kids--we're the ones pay the taxes for them to live!! >(). And if you're gay, that's fine too. If some people can't except this, well, then they're just a bunch of weenies.

Jason Tandro wrote:

At risk of going off-topic I would like to address that issue. Zero Population Growth is an offensive concept to me. Forcing people to limit how many lives we can bring into this world is as repugnant to me as forced abortions. And your tax dollars go to a lot more than people who have large families (such as my mid-sized family of 5 kids), and have you ever considered how much more money these parents are chucking into the economy by having so many kids? Feeding (as you say) 10 mouths is hard enough, but you also have clothes, school supplies, vaccinations, extra utility usage, toys, the latest video games if your kids are spoiled rotten. Point is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a large family as long as you can support them yourself with little outside assistance (family and church support don't count. I'm talking welfare here.)

EverPhoenix wrote:

i think that is exactly the issue. what i think sora was talking about was those who insist on, as you put it, "bringing lives into this world" - which im by no means against, im just bringing up a point - and cannot provide for them. im also going to have to not entirely conform to the rules you laid out by not quoting a source, but if people didnt have more kids than they could handle (financially), i would guess that there would be less people on the street, slightly less petty theft (this one is going a bit far, ill admit), and less tax-payer dollars needed to provide humane treatment to those whose families cant. in summary: i would say i agree with both points, but feel that i needed to make a few adjustments.

Jason Tandro wrote:

Well first off, raini, boxxleman and eFlare are the only people with the power to moderate this forum. My suggestions were just that, suggestions. Secondly I've never argued that people should recieve government help because they made the poor decision to create a child they are unable to support, but I think ZPG is a faulty argument. If we had to get rid of all the accidents and orphans of the world, along with being a pretty bleak place to live you'd have to wonder at the morality of a government that could be so heartless. That's what Family Planning should be about, but instead the term has become tantamount to Abortion, which is an unfair generalization.

Continue the discussion here.

[psychokind]

Quote:

But you are always capable of choosing action and despite what people think we do not need sex.

all right, try telling that my johnny after a month without

seriously, I think we need sex and we need to be straight. if you don't want children, your subconsciousness doesn't value your genetic pool enough to think you should stay in this world. I think there's nothing more important than reproducing.

[Jason Tandro]

Well to be fair, eating and breathing are pretty high on that list, but I agree with the spirit of your message.

[Mantaray]

All humans seem to be doing is reproducing at all. With continous growth of the human population, our resources are also depleting a lot faster. I would go on about what overpopulation is doing to our home planet and all, but I think we are all aware of it. Plus, that may start yet another topic.

So in a nutshell, humans are destorying themselves with overpopulation. Overfishing, overeating, topsoil eroding (i.e pollution [global warming]), and many more reasons.

I have nothing against reproducing at all, but I think maybe humans should slow down a bit, or maybe even consider adopting. I understand that there are people that love children very much, but kids don't last forever and self-control is a virtue.

Well... I guess I'm biased in both ways... or soemthing like that. I have nothing against anything, I just know people are better than this..

edit-- wish i were a little more aware of how i said things back when this post was made in 2009 ._.

[Jason Tandro]

I'll grant you a point in that countries like China are so overpopulated that government has to mandate and regulate the amount of reproduction going on, but the family unit has been the key societal pillar since ancient days.

In ancient Japan, for instance, not even the Emperor could go against the word of a Father when it came to the treatment of his family. (Found this out by reading Shogun, by James Clavell).

And while adoption is an admirable pursuit, parents should not be denied the right to create a child who is their own offspring.

As for your comment about overpopulation causing the decay of the planet, you are probably right that this should be another topic, but since the two are connected I think we can just roll with it.

Overpopulation does have a drain on our resources. There is no getting around that and I'm not going to try and argue with it. Global warming I'll fight you tooth and nail over, but let's save that for another thread.

Still in this case I don't believe the ends justify the means. Reproduction is a natural part of life. What we should do is have better education for people out there so they can weigh the options before having kids. Also we need to have better access to contraceptives.

To some religious people who believe that making contraceptives hard to get will stymie a teenager's sexual drive, I have one thing to say: Good luck with that. It won't happen. Teenagers will still have sex and some will get pregnant.

I don't believe in abortion as a method of birth control, and its not fair to punish the unborn child, so let's just make contraceptives free and easy to acquire (for my full stance on abortion, let's wait for another thread).

Attacking on these two fronts we can reduce the number of accidental pregnancies and children abandoned by their parents and also make sure that the parents who decide to have kids will be fully aware of the expenses and risks involved. It wouldn't be immediate, but over time it would reach the end goal you're seeking, sora-mage.

[psychokind]

don't worry about overpopulation. a small part of human kind is ruining the earth, not the overpopulation does. and you all just have to wait, there will be a war, or a pandemic that will reduce us if we're too many. we're still humans you know

"war was always here. before man was, war waited for him. the ultimate trade awaiting it's ultimate practitioner"

[Jason Tandro]

psychokind wrote:

don't worry about overpopulation. a small part of human kind is ruining the earth, not the overpopulation does. and you all just have to wait, there will be a war, or a pandemic that will reduce us if we're too many. we're still humans you know "war was always here. before man was, war waited for him. the ultimate trade awaiting it's ultimate practitioner"

Yeah and we've got pandemics aplenty nowadays. I seem to recall something in the news recently... swan flu? swine glue? I forget...

[psychokind]

Jason Tandro wrote:

psychokind wrote: don't worry about overpopulation. a small part of human kind is ruining the earth, not the overpopulation does. and you all just have to wait, there will be a war, or a pandemic that will reduce us if we're too many. we're still humans you know "war was always here. before man was, war waited for him. the ultimate trade awaiting it's ultimate practitioner" Yeah and we've got pandemics aplenty nowadays. I seem to recall something in the news recently... swan flu? swine glue? I forget...

swine flu^^ but that's.... no offense, but only people in the USA, mexico, china or other countries with bad health care die of that. in germany and most european countries you can't die of that little flu.

[Jason Tandro]

psychokind wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: psychokind wrote: don't worry about overpopulation. a small part of human kind is ruining the earth, not the overpopulation does. and you all just have to wait, there will be a war, or a pandemic that will reduce us if we're too many. we're still humans you know "war was always here. before man was, war waited for him. the ultimate trade awaiting it's ultimate practitioner" Yeah and we've got pandemics aplenty nowadays. I seem to recall something in the news recently... swan flu? swine glue? I forget... swine flu^^ but that's.... no offense, but only people in the USA, mexico, china or other countries with bad health care die of that. in germany and most european countries you can't die of that little flu.

I know. That's what I said. We've got people world wide dying off of that little strain. Imagine what the figures are like for AIDS. Staggering!!!

[inferiare]

I only believe in capping the whole child thing when it goes to absurd. Octomom comes to mind. Stuff like that drives me bonkers. Her only real reason (or rather, what tabloids at work said, and hell if I can remember which. ...not that tabloids have any real truth, but) to have a billion children (that we're all paying for now ) because her role model/idol/favourite actress or whatever is Angelina Jolie.

...because, you know, Jolie is the PERFECT role model. Of course, what Octomom failed to realize is that three of Jolie's children are biological and the rest were adopted and... the kicker, SHE CAN AFFORD TO TAKE CARE OF HER BROOD. That's what drives me insane. We're now paying for her 14 children, her gas, their video games, everything. Don't forget she's also getting a new reality tv show which only gives her more money and more unnecessary fame.

It's really the things like this that drive me up the wall concerning children. When you can afford to take care of your children, I don't care. But when it's either stupid teenagers (not all teens are stupid, of course, but a good majority are) who forget that contraceptives exist (and places like Planned Parenthood around the states give out condoms for free so you don't have to steal them from the store /grumblerantbitch), get pregnant, and then can't afford to take care of the child which means the rest of us have to do it with our own money.

...and I'm getting ranty and not so debate-y. I should stop while I'm ahead.

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

It's really the things like this that drive me up the wall concerning children. When you can afford to take care of your children, I don't care. But when it's either stupid teenagers (not all teens are stupid, of course, but a good majority are) who forget that contraceptives exist (and places like Planned Parenthood around the states give out condoms for free so you don't have to steal them from the store /grumblerantbitch), get pregnant, and then can't afford to take care of the child which means the rest of us have to do it with our own money. ...and I'm getting ranty and not so debate-y. I should stop while I'm ahead.

I agree totally. it drives me nuts seeing people placing innocent childs in this world without being able to propperly support their own blood.

[inferiare]

psychokind wrote:

rainichan wrote: It's really the things like this that drive me up the wall concerning children. When you can afford to take care of your children, I don't care. But when it's either stupid teenagers (not all teens are stupid, of course, but a good majority are) who forget that contraceptives exist (and places like Planned Parenthood around the states give out condoms for free so you don't have to steal them from the store /grumblerantbitch), get pregnant, and then can't afford to take care of the child which means the rest of us have to do it with our own money. ...and I'm getting ranty and not so debate-y. I should stop while I'm ahead. I agree totally. it drives me nuts seeing people placing innocent childs in this world without being able to propperly support their own blood.

It's not always young, idiot teens either, which in retrospect I should have added. Adults do this too, though it's usually the younger adults who do that, I've seen (people in my age bracket of 18-24 who can barely afford themselves, let alone a child of any age).

[EverPhoenix]

rainichan wrote:

I only believe in capping the whole child thing when it goes to absurd. Octomom comes to mind. Stuff like that drives me bonkers. Her only real reason (or rather, what tabloids at work said, and hell if I can remember which. ...not that tabloids have any real truth, but) to have a billion children (that we're all paying for now ) because her role model/idol/favourite actress or whatever is Angelina Jolie. ...because, you know, Jolie is the PERFECT role model. Of course, what Octomom failed to realize is that three of Jolie's children are biological and the rest were adopted and... the kicker, SHE CAN AFFORD TO TAKE CARE OF HER BROOD. That's what drives me insane. We're now paying for her 14 children, her gas, their video games, everything. Don't forget she's also getting a new reality tv show which only gives her more money and more unnecessary fame. It's really the things like this that drive me up the wall concerning children. When you can afford to take care of your children, I don't care. But when it's either stupid teenagers (not all teens are stupid, of course, but a good majority are) who forget that contraceptives exist (and places like Planned Parenthood around the states give out condoms for free so you don't have to steal them from the store /grumblerantbitch), get pregnant, and then can't afford to take care of the child which means the rest of us have to do it with our own money. ...and I'm getting ranty and not so debate-y. I should stop while I'm ahead.

i think your rant just summed up pretty much my whole argument. nice work

[inferiare]

Lol. Glad I could speak for two of us, then, EP.

[SoulBlazerFan]

I recently caught commercials on MTV for a show called "16 And Pregnant." They set it up to be all drama, wah, look at me, my life is tough and I'm in over my head. I don't know how anyone could feel bad for them. They were the ones to choose to have sex before marriage, and at 16? Jeez. Even if you took all the necessary precautions, and still got pregnant, I wouldn't feel bad for you. Your choices define you, and you have to live with them, either way. It drives me crazy that women like octobitch can have 12 kids and ride JOBLESS while we have to bust our perverbial asses to pay for them.

Do I agree humanity is destoying the planet? Sure. But is it just me or is everyone trying to distance themselves from that? Do you not drive? Eat fast food? Use electicity (No brainer there- you're on a computer!). We're all doing our part in the eventual destruction of this lush planet. Let's at least enjoy it, right?

As to what Jason said, it's your right as a human to have Children (At least in the United States, anyway), but I totally agree weighing your options before jumping off that mountain. Too many people (My parents included) have too many children and can't give them what they need. Hell, I didn't have heath insurance after age 8, and still don't. (Bad, I know). Too many people having too many kids that they can't provide for.