Gun Control

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

Excuse me, but I've got European blood flowing through me. We've got just as much history here as everywhere else. We do have a bloody history, and it keeps getting worse because we have to bail everyone else out while worrying about our OWN damn nation. It's NOT as peaceful as you think, and I'm actually pretty damn offended by that.

every white american has european blood flowing through him and no, you haven't got as much history as everywhere else^^ that would be like saying "our history is as old as mayan" or sth, it's just historically wrong.

and you have a bloody history, but not in comparison with ours (would be impossible in that short amount of time). you don't have to bail out everyone else (except WW2), you just think you do most of the time. and it would be much more peacful in your own country if you had gun control...

I don't want to offend you, but it's hard to soften up arguments that sound offending in any way you say them

[Jason Tandro]

rainichan wrote:

We do have a bloody history, and it keeps getting worse because we have to bail everyone else out while worrying about our OWN damn nation. It's NOT as peaceful as you think, and I'm actually pretty damn offended by that.

I say again, I think I'm in love with you.

@psychokind: I understand that, but the problem is you apparently are missing a key point. America has been around for a little more than 200 years now and we've already been in 10 major international wars, a civil war, civil rights riots, slave trades, conflicts with foreign powers, terrorist attacks. America is, by its very nature, not a peaceful place. Sure we're not as old as, say Germany, but don't assume that because your country has the advantage of years that it somehow has worse stigmas. Every country has a dark past.

[psychokind]

Jason Tandro wrote:

rainichan wrote: We do have a bloody history, and it keeps getting worse because we have to bail everyone else out while worrying about our OWN damn nation. It's NOT as peaceful as you think, and I'm actually pretty damn offended by that. I say again, I think I'm in love with you. @psychokind: I understand that, but the problem is you apparently are missing a key point. America has been around for a little more than 200 years now and we've already been in 10 major international wars, a civil war, civil rights riots, slave trades, conflicts with foreign powers, terrorist attacks. America is, by its very nature, not a peaceful place. Sure we're not as old as, say Germany, but don't assume that because your country has the advantage of years that it somehow has worse stigmas. Every country has a dark past.

let alone the dark ages without it's wars is 10 times more "dark past" than all of your wars together

[inferiare]

psychokind wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: rainichan wrote: We do have a bloody history, and it keeps getting worse because we have to bail everyone else out while worrying about our OWN damn nation. It's NOT as peaceful as you think, and I'm actually pretty damn offended by that. I say again, I think I'm in love with you. @psychokind: I understand that, but the problem is you apparently are missing a key point. America has been around for a little more than 200 years now and we've already been in 10 major international wars, a civil war, civil rights riots, slave trades, conflicts with foreign powers, terrorist attacks. America is, by its very nature, not a peaceful place. Sure we're not as old as, say Germany, but don't assume that because your country has the advantage of years that it somehow has worse stigmas. Every country has a dark past. let alone the dark ages without it's wars is 10 times more "dark past" than all of your wars together

We've had our share of things go down here too that weren't wars that were just as pointless, and they weren't in the dark ages. We HAVE had to bail everyone out of things. We're still in Korea (that wasn't our war to fight, but we still went anyway), we're still sitting in Somalia and stopping the things that go down there. We had to bail out Iraq from its own stupid government. Need I go on?

And no, it wouldn't be more peaceful. "In 1976, Washington, D.C., instituted one of the strictest gun-control laws in the country. The murder rate since that time has risen 134 percent (77.8 per 100,000 population) while the overall rate for the country has declined 2 percent. Washington, D.C., politicians find it easy to blame Virginia’s less-stringent gun laws for the D.C. murder rate. Yet Virginia Beach, Virginia’s largest city with almost 400,000 residents, has had one of the lowest rates of murder in the country — 4.1 per 100,000." (from here) Yes that was 20-30 years ago, and DC still has that gun ban. But that number, as far as I know, has not changed. Places that allow concealed carry weapon licenses? Do not have this bad of a problem. As I said before, what works for you will not work for us. Our nation is not a peaceful one, and it probably never will be, gun control or not.

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

We've had our share of things go down here too that weren't wars that were just as pointless, and they weren't in the dark ages. We HAVE had to bail everyone out of things. We're still in Korea (that wasn't our war to fight, but we still went anyway), we're still sitting in Somalia and stopping the things that go down there. We had to bail out Iraq from its own stupid government. Need I go on?

again, you just THOUGHT that you have to bail out everyone^^ north korea now almost has the bomb, iraq is in total chaos after you disbanded the leader you beforehand put in charge. and I'm sure the NATO can take care of the pirates all alone in somalia (NATO forces are bigger than the US forces).

besides, why do we europeans have to help out in cleaning up the mess you leave in afghanistan and iraq? you always leave things half done (vietnam, korea are good examples ), and that's why it would be better that you leave wars to the one who really want to fight them (russians harr)^^ but that's offtopic

rainichan wrote:

And no, it wouldn't be more peaceful. "In 1976, Washington, D.C., instituted one of the strictest gun-control laws in the country. The murder rate since that time has risen 134 percent (77.8 per 100,000 population) while the overall rate for the country has declined 2 percent. Washington, D.C., politicians find it easy to blame Virginia’s less-stringent gun laws for the D.C. murder rate. Yet Virginia Beach, Virginia’s largest city with almost 400,000 residents, has had one of the lowest rates of murder in the country — 4.1 per 100,000." (from here) Yes that was 20-30 years ago, and DC still has that gun ban. But that number, as far as I know, has not changed. Places that allow concealed carry weapon licenses? Do not have this bad of a problem. As I said before, what works for you will not work for us. Our nation is not a peaceful one, and it probably never will be, gun control or not.

don't you think that's because you can still buy guns everywhere around washington? it's logic that murder rate increases, because only evil people will make the effort of smuggling a weapon in from the outside. if there would be no guns in the country, the murder rate would shrink.

what's good for us is good for you, but you're a young culture and don't want to listen to the advice of us old ones. you'll learn eventually, as you now (maybe ) have in terms of environment protection. at the latest when california is completely burned down

[Jason Tandro]

psychokind wrote:

rainichan wrote: We've had our share of things go down here too that weren't wars that were just as pointless, and they weren't in the dark ages. We HAVE had to bail everyone out of things. We're still in Korea (that wasn't our war to fight, but we still went anyway), we're still sitting in Somalia and stopping the things that go down there. We had to bail out Iraq from its own stupid government. Need I go on? again, you just THOUGHT that you have to bail out everyone^^

Well silly us. Because it seems like when we sit back and do nothing, the UN calls us heartless bastards. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's another reason I hate the UN.

[inferiare]

Jason Tandro wrote:

psychokind wrote: rainichan wrote: We've had our share of things go down here too that weren't wars that were just as pointless, and they weren't in the dark ages. We HAVE had to bail everyone out of things. We're still in Korea (that wasn't our war to fight, but we still went anyway), we're still sitting in Somalia and stopping the things that go down there. We had to bail out Iraq from its own stupid government. Need I go on? again, you just THOUGHT that you have to bail out everyone^^ Well silly us. Because it seems like when we sit back and do nothing, the UN calls us heartless bastards. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's another reason I hate the UN.

This. If we don't go help, we get called every name under the sun. Hell, it's in our constitution (I think-- it's still early and I'm not awake yet, I'll verify later) that we don't go fight other nation's wars so we don't get caught up in it, and that's just what we do. We get the "OH PLEASE COME HELP US WE NEED YOUR HELP " from other nations, and if we don't? We get called assholes, heartless bastards, oh think of the children you jerks! But when we do, we get no thank yous, we get nothing but our military forces stretched thinner and thinner. We're still sitting in Somalia. We're still sitting in South Korea. Hell, the military base in Okinawa, Japan, is STILL occupied by US soldiers and we haven't been in a war with Japan since the 1940s!

And no, what is good for you guys REALLY isn't good for us. I highly doubt that a place that has a gun ban/gun control law in effect would be selling guns. And yet, the crime rate still rises in areas that have such a law, and it's lower in places that the law is not in effect because people can protect themselves and deter criminals from harming them.

The 'younger nation' argument really has no bearing on anything. Your government is run differently, which leads to laws being set up differently, which leads to a country that is run completely different than our own. Our written rules, essentially, for our nation give us the right to bear arms to protect ourselves from danger. Danger can mean ANYTHING here, from criminals to the government being dimbulbs and we have to revolt against them (which I foresee happening in the near future because- and I'll say it publically- Obama is a dimbulb and doesn't give a shit about this nation, just what he wants.) And how are we supposed to protect ourselves when those happen? Forks, knives, and spoons? Our bare hands? Throwing blunt objects? It. Doesn't. Work. The criminals will be the ones armed, and the innocents and the ones that need the protection won't be able to protect their families. That's not exactly the smartest idea, and it has nothing to do with us being a younger nation or whatever, it has to do with what is good for our own nation, and not what every other nation says we should do because they already did it.

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: Well silly us. Because it seems like when we sit back and do nothing, the UN calls us heartless bastards. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's another reason I hate the UN. This. If we don't go help, we get called every name under the sun. Hell, it's in our constitution (I think-- it's still early and I'm not awake yet, I'll verify later) that we don't go fight other nation's wars so we don't get caught up in it, and that's just what we do. We get the "OH PLEASE COME HELP US WE NEED YOUR HELP " from other nations, and if we don't? We get called assholes, heartless bastards, oh think of the children you jerks! But when we do, we get no thank yous, we get nothing but our military forces stretched thinner and thinner. We're still sitting in Somalia. We're still sitting in South Korea. Hell, the military base in Okinawa, Japan, is STILL occupied by US soldiers and we haven't been in a war with Japan since the 1940s!

as far as I remember, both Iraq and Afghanistan were wars forbidden to you by the UN and does any civilized country want you? no. you're trying to install a rocket shield thing by bribing poland, you try to install a US friendly government in georgia WHICH IS NEXT TO RUSSIA, what are you thinking? who has to repair all the diplomatic mess you create all the time? the EU... just because we got more money, or what is your reasoning?

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And no, what is good for you guys REALLY isn't good for us. I highly doubt that a place that has a gun ban/gun control law in effect would be selling guns. And yet, the crime rate still rises in areas that have such a law, and it's lower in places that the law is not in effect because people can protect themselves and deter criminals from harming them. The 'younger nation' argument really has no bearing on anything. Your government is run differently, which leads to laws being set up differently, which leads to a country that is run completely different than our own. Our written rules, essentially, for our nation give us the right to bear arms to protect ourselves from danger. Danger can mean ANYTHING here, from criminals to the government being dimbulbs and we have to revolt against them (which I foresee happening in the near future because- and I'll say it publically- Obama is a dimbulb and doesn't give a shit about this nation, just what he wants.) And how are we supposed to protect ourselves when those happen? Forks, knives, and spoons? Our bare hands? Throwing blunt objects? It. Doesn't. Work. The criminals will be the ones armed, and the innocents and the ones that need the protection won't be able to protect their families. That's not exactly the smartest idea, and it has nothing to do with us being a younger nation or whatever, it has to do with what is good for our own nation, and not what every other nation says we should do because they already did it.

and that's exactly why the "younger culture" argument works. you DON'T need weapons to revolt^^ democracy doesn't work that way. you can install it, but not change it with guns if you're unsatisfied.

and still, areas with gun control can't work if you just can go outside and buy some, as I said to washington.

[inferiare]

psychokind wrote:

as far as I remember, both Iraq and Afghanistan were wars forbidden to you by the UN and does any civilized country want you? no. you're trying to install a rocket shield thing by bribing poland, you try to install a US friendly government in georgia WHICH IS NEXT TO RUSSIA, what are you thinking? who has to repair all the diplomatic mess you create all the time? the EU... just because we got more money, or what is your reasoning?

Our president at that time was as big of an idiot as the one we have now. The UN should not (and legally around here, does not) have any sort of say so in the matters of what we do. They are not in charge of the country. Then again, no one wanted to go to Iraq or Afghanistan anyway, and Bush STILL pushed for it like the jerkwad he is. One person wanting the war does not mean all of us did. And no, they do. We give free handouts and they just want more the more we give them. Again, with no thank yous. And as I said, one person who is "in charge" of this nation =/= all of us. If we would stay out of foreign affairs, like we SHOULD be doing, we wouldn't have to have the EU bail us out of messes. But hey, the UN pushes for those diplomatic messes (or what starts before it becomes a mess!) and the EU is part of that. Not just us there.

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and that's exactly why the "younger culture" argument works. you DON'T need weapons to revolt^^ democracy doesn't work that way. you can install it, but not change it with guns if you're unsatisfied.

I don't think you understand; for us, we DO need them. How fair is it for the citizens to have no weaponry if we need it against our own retard government, and the police/military force to have said weapons? It would be like Israel fighting of the Palestinians: REALLY FREAKING UNFAIR in terms of fighting. Israel has tanks and heavy artillery, and the Palestinians have rocks. That's essentially what it would be for us against the military and police forces. How fair is that?

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and still, areas with gun control can't work if you just can go outside and buy some, as I said to washington.

...which is what happens, and the citizens playing by the rules get in trouble for it, and criminals who don't get caught don't, so they shoot people up and crime rate SOARS.

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

Our president at that time was as big of an idiot as the one we have now. The UN should not (and legally around here, does not) have any sort of say so in the matters of what we do. They are not in charge of the country. Then again, no one wanted to go to Iraq or Afghanistan anyway, and Bush STILL pushed for it like the jerkwad he is. One person wanting the war does not mean all of us did. And no, they do. We give free handouts and they just want more the more we give them. Again, with no thank yous. And as I said, one person who is "in charge" of this nation =/= all of us. If we would stay out of foreign affairs, like we SHOULD be doing, we wouldn't have to have the EU bail us out of messes. But hey, the UN pushes for those diplomatic messes (or what starts before it becomes a mess!) and the EU is part of that. Not just us there.

you are a democracy, and your president represents the will of the citizens. you elected him twice! that's how it works.
the UN does not push for diplomatic messes, it really was you for the last 8 years. both UN and EU set high hopes in obama... no wait, we set the "hope" in obama that he just cares about his own country first and leaves the world alone
I try to think about a mess you had to get the EU out of (don't say WW2 ). we made a mess together, NATO and USA, in kosovo. not that the US is still cleaning up there like we do -.-

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I don't think you understand; for us, we DO need them. How fair is it for the citizens to have no weaponry if we need it against our own retard government, and the police/military force to have said weapons? It would be like Israel fighting of the Palestinians: REALLY FREAKING UNFAIR in terms of fighting. Israel has tanks and heavy artillery, and the Palestinians have rocks. That's essentially what it would be for us against the military and police forces. How fair is that?

palestinians do have loads of weapons (they shoot rockets into israel all the time), why do you think there is no peace? that's a good example for how changing your countrys situation for the better should exclude guns and stuff.

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...which is what happens, and the citizens playing by the rules get in trouble for it, and criminals who don't get caught don't, so they shoot people up and crime rate SOARS.

that's why it only works if the whole country forbids guns^^

[inferiare]

psychokind wrote:

you are a democracy, and your president represents the will of the citizens. you elected him twice! that's how it works. the UN does not push for diplomatic messes, it really was you for the last 8 years. both UN and EU set high hopes in obama... no wait, we set the "hope" in obama that he just cares about his own country first and leaves the world alone I try to think about a mess you had to get the EU out of (don't say WW2 ). we made a mess together, NATO and USA, in kosovo. not that the US is still cleaning up there like we do -.-

I didn't elect Bush, and I sure as hell didn't elect Obama. We're a democracy in name, but not by how we're run, not anymore. Our president doesn't represent the will of the people anymore, it's all about what they want and not what's good for the people.

And no, there were more people pushing for NOT going to Iraq than there were pushing for war. People didn't want that war in Iraq because it's a pointless war and everyone knew it. The only good thing that came out of it was Hussein being brought down out of power and executed. The minute everyone else pulls out of Iraq, they're going to go back to the way they were. And I'll say it now, Obama doesn't care about his own country.

And hey now, WW2? WE tried to stay out of, and we were pulled into it. Whatever our presidents do now is not the will of the people, so much as their own personal vendettas being enacted. Bush Jr. was only finishing up what daddy started back in the 80's and early 90's.

...and really, we don't have enough military TO clean up anywhere else. Europe has the military strength from what it sounds like, and you're all closer to Kosovo than we are. :\

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palestinians do have loads of weapons (they shoot rockets into israel all the time), why do you think there is no peace? that's a good example for how changing your countrys situation for the better should exclude guns and stuff.

Not all of them. Whatever they get is from the black market I would assume (they're a poor country, there's no way they can get loads of weapons unless they have a supplier and they're all hand-me-downs, essentially :\), and Israel just sort of plows through them and kills more and more of the Palestinians.

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that's why it only works if the whole country forbids guns^^

And let the criminals have the guns? That's a super good idea, let me go cry that I'm for letting the criminals run wild with firearms when I have no way of defending myself. Criminals will ALWAYS get the firearms and be armed. How is that a good idea, in any sense?

[Jason Tandro]

@psychokind: Whoa whoa whoa, back up. First off "forbidden us by the UN?" Fuck the UN.

And secondly what do you mean no "civilized country" wants us to do it? No, they want us to do it, just not in the open. Why do you think we are recieving aid from other armies, such as Russia and other middle eastern nations. It's in vogue to hate the US because we're a scapegoat.

The fact is if we don't do your work for you, it doesn't get done. Other nations need to grow a pair before they criticize the work of others.

[Edit: By the by, forgive me sounding heated, but that's what debate does. We still cool.]

[psychokind]

@raini: but that's how democracy works. if you don't think you're represented by your president, he still does represent you, because he's elected. there's no individual, only the majority.

it's the same for palestina. they elected the hamas into their government, and they don't want peace. since then, nobody gives a shit about how much they are killed by the israelis. and there is no gun control in ghaza^^

that's the wrong way of thought. our criminals don't have guns, at least none of the ones normal citizens encounter, and even if they do, guns won't be used. we have about 150 deaths by firearms a year, and you're sth in the 11000s. 10 times more than all of the civilized countries together or so?


@jason: this is a debate, of course it's heated (eurofags vs amerifags ), and of course we still cool

we only hate you because you think things like "fuck the UN" and stuff. we all loved the US when the clintonfocker was still your president, of course we thought "let them fight the communism in asia, as long as they don't want to fight it in europe", but afghanistan and iraq was really spaced out... and even then, you do your thing, do it as long as you're a steady trade partner. but you boldly wanted us to help out and rebuild the country? wtf?

your provocations against russia recently were even more unnecessary, and again we had to pay for it.

[Jason Tandro]

psychokind wrote:

your provocations against russia recently were even more unnecessary, and again we had to pay for it.

O rly? How, exactly, did you pay for us getting involved in (I assume) the Georgia situation.

[inferiare]

psychokind wrote:

@raini: but that's how democracy works. if you don't think you're represented by your president, he still does represent you, because he's elected. there's no individual, only the majority.

No, how it's supposed to work is that the elected officials are supposed to listen to their people. Right now, the elected officials have their fingers in their ears and are doing what they want, not what the people they are supposed to be serving want. They're allowing people to pass laws, laws that they WANT in place, and then have someone who disagrees with the majority bring it to the Supreme Court to get around what the people themselves wanted in place. That's not how our government is supposed to work. As I said, we're a democracy in name only, and we're nothing like a democracy any longer.

it's the same for palestina. they elected the hamas into their government, and they don't want peace. since then, nobody gives a shit about how much they are killed by the israelis. and there is no gun control in ghaza^^

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that's the wrong way of thought. our criminals don't have guns

Ours DO. Which makes it not the wrong way of thought when our criminals DO have guns. As I asked before, how are those who have to protect their homes and families supposed to protect their families/homes against an armed robber/criminal? With a fork or knife? Blunt object? Chairs? If you shoot the criminal first, then there is no crime (unless the bastard decides he wants to push a lawsuit, no matter that he broke in and entered, and then threatened the inhabitants of the house!)

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we have about 150 deaths by firearms a year, and you're sth in the 11000s. 10 times more than all of the civilized countries together or so?

Is that just in Austria, or all of Europe as a whole? If you're going for just Austria, the number of reported deaths (of the most recent list I could find) in Nevada was 405 people in 2006. The highest on the list that year was California was 3,363 deaths by firearms. However, Southern California is also on the border to Mexico, where a crapton of drug cartels/smugglers come from and shoot up people, and Los Angeles is FULL of crime because of illegals from everywhere else. You also have to take into consideration that we are one country here with a bunch of states. Europe is a bunch of countries on one continent. I can't look up "gun violence in europe" as a whole, since it just breaks it down by country. You also have to take into consideration that some of this "gun violence" also comes from suicide and self-defense. Yes, there are other means of suicide besides blowing your brains out, but that's the quickest way for someone to go. As I said, our numbers may be bigger, but that really doesn't mean anything. :/