A Sensitive Subject...

[Jason Tandro]

Okay, I totally wouldn't have brought this up if my friends and I hadn't been discussing this the other day, but are fantasies as bad as the actual act?

For instance, the one we were using is my friend made a comment about how he would sometimes fantasize about (and this is where it gets sensitive) raping somebody. We jumped on him saying that it was a little messed up, but it got me wondering.

I mean I know there is rape fantasy roleplay, but it's not the same as wishing to do this to somebody.

Frankly I think consentual fantasy is fine, but wanting to take away that right from somebody else, even just in your mind, is too sick for even me, the Bondage freak.

[tay120n64]

I don't see anything wrong with fantasizing about rape, etc. As long as fantasy and reality are two separate things, mind you.

It's kind of like the argument that video games make people violent. Just because when I play GTA I like to drag someone out of their car, punch them, shoot them, steal their car, drive over them, pick up a whore, f**k her, shoot her, run over her, drive off, then ramp over a building or two doesn't mean I'm going to do those things in real life.

I have to be mentally unstable prior to my experience with the game for it to affect me like that.

Likewise, if I fantasize about rape, incest, pedophilia, or bestiality, that doesn't mean it's something I'd really want to do.

Not that I do fantasize about those things...

[Freedan]

Fantasized rape, from what I understand, is actually rather common in both men and women.

Personally, I would say fantasized rape is more about a desire for power and control (that is, if the fantasizer is the one doing the act... obviously, the opposite is true for the 'victim'). Maybe he has a desire for those things because he doesn't have much of it in reality? (I have no idea, and to be honest, don't much care... just suggesting) In fantasy, you have control... you choose how everything pans out. As long as it stays a fantasy (or at least roleplay between consenting adults), it's not a problem.

But real rape isn't about control, or even sex... just violence. It's unbridled aggression. The rapist is only out to hurt, and that makes it wrong.

[inferiare]

I think tay and Freedan have it right, really. Fantasy and reality, as long as they stay separate, are all right. I know a lot of people who find, say, lolicon or shotacon (aka, the love of underage children in somewhat sexual situations, if you will, or just the sexual fantasy of an underage kid) are ok with it in print, like a manga/doujin/printed media. Save for the few weirdos on 4chan, there are people who like the loli/shotacon, but detest the idea of it actually happening to children and think it wrong.

With the rape fantasy, I think most girls who get off on it are the kind that like to be dominant in reality, but the idea of having that power taken from them by force is something that excites them. That's coming from a female standpoint, of course, but that would be my guess on why that's the idea of it.

[Jason Tandro]

I guess my views are a little weird then. I mean (and let's be mature here, this is standard human sexuality we're dealing with) my fantasies do involve bondage but in all of those situations its a fantasy of a cooperative roleplay. Maybe I'm weird like that.

There was some freudian psychologist who said that "deep down all women want to be raped", and I think that's about the dumbest thing I've heard. However, I've noticed a trend in that the majority of men are dominant, and the majority of women submissive. This does not equate to "all women are men's possessions and must do as they are told", as our "expert" seems to think, but rather that women have more emotional security than men, and don't mind being emotionally (and yes, physically) submissive to men (or maybe they just really do like the control being taken away from them). Men, on the other hand, are usually very needy (this, again, coming from a male perspective) and need to exert our dominance to feel adequate.

For instance, in bondage (and I'm really not trying to slip it into every conversation, but this is a perfect time to use this example), submissives usually say that being tied up makes them feel (ironically) free. I think this comes from the idea that if you lose control then you also lose responsibility, and anything that happens to you you can't feel guilty about.

[psychokind]

Jason Tandro wrote:

There was some freudian psychologist who said that "deep down all women want to be raped", and I think that's about the dumbest thing I've heard. However, I've noticed a trend in that the majority of men are dominant, and the majority of women submissive. This does not equate to "all women are men's possessions and must do as they are told", as our "expert" seems to think, but rather that women have more emotional security than men, and don't mind being emotionally (and yes, physically) submissive to men (or maybe they just really do like the control being taken away from them). Men, on the other hand, are usually very needy (this, again, coming from a male perspective) and need to exert our dominance to feel adequate.

I, too, think that this meant most women want to get dominated from time to time. NOT in a fetish way, and not by physical abuse. I think it's more about psychological force, stimulating the human danger sense and making her feel pressured. it's all about trust then, she has to let loose and hand over all control to you.

generally, having thoughts about sth and doing it are different things. and it's important to THINK things to not do them.

[Jason Tandro]

And having the cognitive dissonance to keep the two in their respective places. When one bleeds over into the other is where the problems begin. Same argument for violent games, as tay mentioned.

[Freedan]

I don't know that it's that women subconsciously want to be raped... maybe more that they want a man to exert power from time to time.

Way back before we learned how to cook meat without setting our back hair on fire, males were usually the dominant ones that took care of the females. They were the hunters, and they had the power. Women must have found that attractive, or we would have died out a long time ago. The desire to be 'taken' is just a primal urge from those days.

[EverPhoenix]

i dont think fantasies are as bad as the act. some things (like the discussed rape) might be a turn on, but that would be more of a power trip than the urge to violate someone.

some fantasies are messed up, but then again anyone without unusual fantasies (sexual or not) is generally plain boring.

although if i do allow my mind to wander to unusual fantasies, i do my best to not think about any real person. i just make up someone for the purpose. seems less messed up..

[tay120n64]

I swear, I can't stand Freudian Psychology.

That man was obsessed with sex far more than what should be healthy or considered legal in the majority of the known world.

[thefencemaster]

tay120n64 wrote:

I swear, I can't stand Freudian Psychology. That man was obsessed with sex far more than what should be healthy or considered legal in the majority of the known world.

Freudian psychology is based mostly off of the unconscious, sex, and childhood. When you put it all together, its really creepy (That was from my psychology teacher)

[Jason Tandro]

EverPhoenix wrote:

although if i do allow my mind to wander to unusual fantasies, i do my best to not think about any real person. i just make up someone for the purpose. seems less messed up..

Duh. Video game girls.

My friend once commented that he would "do unforgivable things" to a certain vg female.

[Battle-Jesus]

Saying fantasies are as bad as committing the act is like saying playing GTA is as bad as actually going out and wrecking havoc. The only people who believe such are fools, in my eyes

[Jason Tandro]

Ah, Battle-Jesus. Nice to see you on the board.

[Ratty Randnums]

Freedan, the Dark Knight wrote:

I don't know that it's that women subconsciously want to be raped... maybe more that they want a man to exert power from time to time. Way back before we learned how to cook meat without setting our back hair on fire, males were usually the dominant ones that took care of the females. They were the hunters, and they had the power. Women must have found that attractive, or we would have died out a long time ago. The desire to be 'taken' is just a primal urge from those days.

Actually as I recall Anthropological (and I think maybe other, like archaeological) research has confirmed that the "male being the bread winner, females being stay-at-home" thing only started after those primordial days you mention.
For most of mans existence the males being "dominant" is probably due only to a difference in physical strength. Because women were equally as important to the survival of the group with their gathering of various plants to eat as the men were with hunting, maybe more so.
Marx theorized and it has been observed that with the different "stages" from nomadic hunter gatherers to settling down and farming (and after) women's duties are seen as less "vital" to the survival of the group, and with their work's devaluation comes their own.
So in hunter gatherer groups** women are usually treated as much more equal than farming societies where men do most of the field work.

As for this chap with the fantasies. Is he talking about one person? Is it like "wow, Laura is so hot. I like to" or is it like "Wow you know sometimes I think it'd be so hot to" and mention no particular person? And is he fixated on it? Is it just an occassional fantasy? One of many? Would he ever act on it most importantly?
Loss of control and trust are the two major things with bondage I believe, and they apply somewhat here. What he thinks about on his own time is his buissness as long as he doesn't do it to anyone, but if it becomes a fixation, especially about a particular person. I'd say he needs help before it gets dangerous.


**Sometimes the women have even been the heads of such groups IIRC.