Zelda: Spirit Tracks and the series potential from now on...

[Jason Tandro]

http://www.zelda.com/universe/game/spirittracks/

...

There are no words to describe the level of my rage at this point in time...

Seriously? The Zelda series is all about ideas and new concepts (and yet they repeat the same storyline with the same three central characters ad naseum) but there has to be a line!

I was uneasy about Cel-da, but actually found it to be one of my personal favorites (screw you guys, sailing is awesome!) But then from what I saw of Phantom Hourglass, I wasn't impressed (although I respect the use of the DS hardware).

And now we have this game, which is going to include trains as a mode of transportation and have the same characters/ graphics, theme of Phantom Hourglass and Wind Waker?


I love the Zelda series, but I think they pull a few boners here and there, and this looks like another fine example.

Remember the Phillip CD-i? We got three truly shitty Zelda games: Link: The Faces of Evil, Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon and Zelda's Adventure. True, the graphics were incredible (ZA being just a few steps below OoT) but the gameplay was critiqued as poor and the games have been declared non-canon.

And yet that is our issue. I have not played these games personally and have not known any who have. But the damage done was done. The problem is if you get a stigma on a name that brings in millions of sold copies, it hurts you. Zelda's name has been dragged through the mud in the early years but it broke out of the mess and is one of the top brands you can own.

But still does that give you an excuse to create countless crazy concepts and stick them under the heading of a popular household name to ensure sales? Isn't that like cheating?

If these trends continue, who knows what the future will bring?

The Legend of Zelda: Race of Heroes
Link discovers a magical motorcycle in an abandoned temple outside of Hyrule. But the dark lord Ganon has already created a massive tank using the Triforce as an alternative fuel source, and has also kidnapped Zelda... just because he can. Link must beat the seven Dark Racers in order to earn crystals to power his bike and defeat Ganon's evil tank.


The Legend of Zelda: Down Under
I don't have the energy to explain this one, but let's say the boomerang will make an appearance. You play the digeridoo for songs and must collect the seven crystal Outback Steakhouse coupons before Ganon feeds Zelda's baby to a dingo.


The Legend of Zelda 3000
Taking place in the galaxy of Hyrule, you must travel from planet to planet in your starship EPONA (Energy Protected Oribital Navigtion Apparatus) and gather the pieces of the Triforce... no wait. Who would be dumb enough to send a beloved cartoon character into space.

By the way, can't wait for Super Mario Galaxy 2.

[Freedan]

Jason Tandro wrote:

The Zelda series is all about ideas and new concepts

As a whole, yes. But individually, each game generally isn't earth shattering in its innovation. Hence, my highlighting of the plural "ideas" and "concepts". Adjust that to the singular.

I thought Twilight Princess was a fantastic game. I loved it. But honestly, aside from the 'turn in to a wolf' thing, was it much different from OoT?

I thoroughly enjoyed PH, even if it was a watered down WW. I have no doubt that ST will be every bit as good (though hopefully not as easy).

I've seen people complain about the use of trains; that the Zelda world is a fantasy world, and that they're getting too high-tech for such a place. I must politely remind these people that Link's Awakening included telephones. Incidentally, trains came first.

The Zelda series is no more guilty of what you're suggesting than nearly any other series out there. Final Fantasy... we're up to, what...? 14? Not counting ones without a number behind them. From what I understand, their biggest innovation is increasingly nonsensical names for people and places.

[tay120n64]

Once again Jason, you need to step aside and let a real Zelda fanatic rant.

FIRST OF ALL: The Phillips-CDi games ARE NOT ZELDA TITLES. They were not made, officiated, licensed, or otherwise by Nintendo, its subsidiaries, or its affiliates.

THEY HAVE NAUGHT TO DO WITH ZELDA. GRAR!

Moving on...

Have you only just heard of Spirit Tracks? It was announced back in March at GDC. At any rate, you're looking down on this game for the wrong reasons. Looking down on ST because of the trains is like looking down on Wind Waker for the graphics. Wind Waker fell short of glory because of tedious sailing, low difficulty, and the main quest being far too short. Likewise, if ST fails it will be most likely due to its similarities to Phantom Hourglass, such as:

-Low Difficulty
-Repetitive Tasks (READ: Ocean Temple)
-Extreme Linearity
-Lack of Depth (story or gameplay)
-Absence of Capcom

Okay, so that last one was personal... Yeah, Minish Cap (the last Zelda title Capcom made) was a fetch-quest nightmare, but the Oracle Series were probably the most creative titles in the series. (and they were actually challenging) I don't see why Capcom doesn't just continue the handheld Zelda line...

Despite my immense love of the Wind Waker art style, I do think they're over doing it. But then, I think it is really popular in Japan (and Miyamoto loves it).

@Freedan: I loved Twilight Princess too, but it was very much Ocarina 2.0. If anyone tells you different, slap 'em, they're in denial. That's like saying Ocarina of Time isn't a glorified A Link to the Past.

Oh, and for the record Jason, the Zelda series isn't about innovation. Only two titles in the series were innovative. It's about familiarity and playing it safe with a respected formula.

That's why the Zelda series feels so dry, and why there are quite a few people who just didn't care for Twilight Princess (despite its awesomeness).

[EverPhoenix]

[quote="Freedan, the Dark Knight"]

Jason Tandro wrote:

I thoroughly enjoyed PH, even if it was a watered down WW.

its quotes like this that make me want to play windwaker less and less. nothing personal, i just think that PH is so pointlessly annoying.

the dungeons are boring, they look crap, and the (stupidly excessive) use of DS hardware, as jason put it... it just annoys me. you seriously use it for EVERYTHING. I WANT TO USE THE D-PAD AND THE A BUTTON LIKE THE OTHER HANDHELD ZELDA GAMES! would it seriously be that bad to only use it for picking up some items and (maybe) swinging your sword? using the stylus for moving, rolling, attacking and picking stuff up is nothing more than 'hey look we can be versatile with our hardware'.. except when the ds disagrees with you on how you moved the stylus across the screen, and you end up stuck between a phantom and a hard place.

if Spirit Tracks is going to go in the same direction of PH, i might not even bother with a download. i never considered buying PH because i heard it wasnt that great a game... so i decided to see for myself and play it on my delightful EDGE DS card. whoever told me it wasnt that great wasnt lying. its a decent game (and barring the use of the stylus, which ill no doubt mention a few more times, id have bothered to finish it), but its nothing compared to the other zelda games ive played. not as user-friendly as the other handheld games, the wrong side of innovative to be compared to OoT (which i only didnt see as OMG BEST GAME EVER because i played it way past its time), nowhere near as visually stunning as twilight princess... (and yes i know its only on ds, but the graphics suck even compared to some gba games ive played).

anyway, back on the topic of Spirit Tracks, ill probably only have a look at it if i hear from somewhere that it is actually better and friendlier than PH.


@jason: i like your ideas for future zelda games

[Jason Tandro]

tay120n64 wrote:

Once again Jason, you need to step aside and let a real Zelda fanatic rant.

I figured I'd goad a response from you.

tay120n64 wrote:

FIRST OF ALL: The Phillips-CDi games ARE NOT ZELDA TITLES. They were not made, officiated, licensed, or otherwise by Nintendo, its subsidiaries, or its affiliates. THEY HAVE NAUGHT TO DO WITH ZELDA. GRAR!

Well, the deal was Nintendo sold the rights to the characters Link, Zelda and Ganon to Phillips and thus we were given the crap-fest that they ended up becoming. Basically they're as much a Zelda Game as Final Fantasy Adventure is a Final Fantasy game.

tay120n64 wrote:

Have you only just heard of Spirit Tracks? It was announced back in March at GDC.

I do think I heard the name before, but I hadn't seen a trailer until just recently (while browsing on the Zelda wiki).

tay120n64 wrote:

At any rate, you're looking down on this game for the wrong reasons. Looking down on ST because of the trains is like looking down on Wind Waker for the graphics. Wind Waker fell short of glory because of tedious sailing, low difficulty, and the main quest being far too short. Likewise, if ST fails it will be most likely due to its similarities to Phantom Hourglass, such as: -Low Difficulty -Repetitive Tasks (READ: Ocean Temple) -Extreme Linearity -Lack of Depth (story or gameplay) -Absence of Capcom

Um... it doesn't get much more linear than TRAINS, now does it?

tay120n64 wrote:

@Freedan: I loved Twilight Princess too, but it was very much Ocarina 2.0. If anyone tells you different, slap 'em, they're in denial. That's like saying Ocarina of Time isn't a glorified A Link to the Past.

This.

tay120n64 wrote:

Oh, and for the record Jason, the Zelda series isn't about innovation. Only two titles in the series were innovative. It's about familiarity and playing it safe with a respected formula. That's why the Zelda series feels so dry, and why there are quite a few people who just didn't care for Twilight Princess (despite its awesomeness).

I disagree with your base argument. Yes, it is about familiarity and formulaic nature (hence the extreme repetition between games), but in that end I feel like the key thing that keeps the series running is by taking that formula and adapting it to multiple different ideas and methods.

In a sense it's like the Legend of Zelda was retold by various peoples of various cultures and each of these cultures told the story in ways that were understandable to them.

Here's the innovation timeline.

Zelda: First free-roaming adventure.
Zelda II: The sleeping princess, magic and towns.
LttP: Light world/ dark world, seven sages, seven maidens, Aghanim.
LA: Island (non-Hyrule adventure), instruments as key points, non-Ganon game, "dream" theme.
OoT: Time travel (young/adult) concept, singular instrument as central focus, deeper characterization.
MM: Even more characterization, multiple masks, time travel (3 days), another Non-Hyrule adventure.
WW: Sea-based swashbuckling adventure, sailing, flooded Hyrule explanation, treasure-hunting feel.

I haven't played enough of the other games to point out all the innovations.

[Miss Prime Blue]

Ahh, Link on a train. I guess he got tired of being on a boat.

[tay120n64]

Jason Tandro wrote:

I haven't played enough of the other games to point out all the innovations.

Allow me to assist then.

The Legend of Zelda - A Pioneer of the Adventure Genre, Free Roam, First Action/Adventure Mash-Up, Items Used to Solve Puzzles

The Adventure of Link - Early Action/RPG, NPC Involvement

A Link to the Past - Parallel Worlds

Link's Awakening - Pioneer for Many Handheld Action and Adventure Titles

Ocarina of Time - First Successful 3D Action/Adventure title, Unique "Lock-On" system, Horseback Riding

Majora's Mask - Time Limit Feature, Expansion Pak Allowed for More Fluid Visuals and Sound

Oracle Series - nothing that Link's Awakening and Pokemon hadn't already done

Four Swords - Dungeons Change With Each Play-Through and Depending on Number of Players

The Wind Waker - Sailing Used for Travel, Expanded Combat System

Four Swords Adventures - "Retro" Style Allows for More Information Displayable On-Screen

Minish Cap - nothing A Link to the Past and the Oracle Series hadn't already done

Twilight Princess (Wii) - Unique "Motion" Controls

Phantom Hourglass - Unique "Touch-Screen" Gameplay

Spirit Tracks - we shall see...

These are the ways each game has truly innovated. There is more that could be said, yes, but any other innovations only really affect the series itself; like the Ocarina or new characters. I only included how each game innovated within gaming as a whole. Other than TLoZ and OoT, it's really not that much.


Also, Final Fantasy Adventure is a Final Fantasy game. Even though it's technically the first Mana, it was still made by an offshoot of developers from other Final Fantasy titles, and was developed with full involvement of the parent company, Squaresoft. It's not really a good comparison. Even games like Snake's Revenge and Castlevania Adventure, though considered non-canon, were still made by their respective companies. Even the Oracle games, though outsourced, were still officiated by Nintendo.

Even though legally they are Zelda games, because Phillips did have the rights, they bear no connection to the series other than novelty.

rar.

[inferiare]

...I dunno guys, after seeing the trailer, I really wanna play it. I don't see what isn't innovative about this one. :/

[tay120n64]

I'm reserving my judgment.

If its anything like Phantom Hourglass, it'll be fun, at the very least. I just hope its more engaging.

[inferiare]

I never got to play Phantom Hourglass, sadly. But I like the idea of Conductor!Link, so I think I'm looking forward to that. Having him be the hero that just wakes up in his bed and gets slammed in the face with YOU'RE THE HERO OF HYRULE by a fairy like Navi gets old after a while.

edit: POST 4000 HELL YEAH.

[thefencemaster]

I have a feeling that this game is going to be a lot better than it should be. Its definitely a fun idea. At least people at Nintendo are trying something new for once.

Regardless of how bad it might turn out to be, I am a fan boy of the Zelda series, and I am thus required to buy and play this game.

[Jason Tandro]

Well I don't own a DS, so I'll just have to wait and see too.