Immigrants and language

[Freedan]

A theoretical, if I may.

Does anyone think there should be a law requiring immigrants to learn the language of their destination country before migrating there (or at least, learning a certain amount within a certain time if there are urgent circumstances for them moving)?

On one hand, if a person plans to move to another country, it should not be up to the country to cater to that one person. If I moved to China, I couldn't expect everyone else to speak English just to accommodate me.

On the other hand, is that not why we have interpreters? Businessmen, after all, don't have to learn the language of the country in which they do business. They have people to translate for them.

Again, on one hand, if someone intends to integrate in to another country, they need to adapt to the norms of that country; that includes learning the language. But on the other, is it bigoted (if even a bit) to say 'use ours, not yours' because we're not willing (creating an 'us vs. them' mentality)? Especially considering North America is seen as nations of many cultures?

What sayest thou?

[inferiare]

If you're planning on living in a country, at least TRY to learn some of the language before you do so. This bugs me so much considering my job. The only time I really give any leeway is if they're up there in age (I'm talking like, maybe 45+ if not older) where it would be harder to learn an entirely new language other than "Yes" and "No". But when they're my age? Hell no, learn my damn language. Hearing "No speak English!" when I'm trying to process a bill (my job profession) and there's no way to ask "Hey are you paying this amount or another amount?" because I can't communicate in any way, shape, or form is irritating as hell.

It's expected of you in other countries (unless you're in an area that's either a: heavy in tourism or b: dual-speaking town/city) to know the language before you live there and you most likely will NOT get accommodations in trying to communicate with the people there. Why shouldn't it be the same in North America? I can only do so much in sign language and pointing and trying to understand what you're trying to say to me, and I hate it even more when the kids are used to translate ugh.

[EverPhoenix]

i think that if people want to live somewhere and be accepted as members of society, they have to conform. they cant expect people to just keep giving them leeway just because they are too lazy or stupid to learn a language. if they dont want to learn a language, stick to countries where they can speak. if said countries are in any form of social/political strife, make your choice: learn or stay there.

might be a bit harsh, and as raini said, there should be allowable exceptions for older people. but even then, they should make an effort.

[Dark_Gaia]

mate i think its bull*$@# that in my country millions of people from different nations move over here to australia n dont bother to learn english, instead make there own communities and ignore and look down on regular australians. it should be a law to at least do a part time course teaching the language basics. at least. that way there would be more understand and less racial issues in aus.

[inferiare]

EverPhoenix wrote:

there should be allowable exceptions for older people. but even then, they should make an effort.

Most of the elderly people I help in my store make more of an effort to try to communicate with me than the people in my age group. I think that says something.

[tay120n64]

If you are going to move to another country, you need to learn their language and customs. Otherwise, why bother leaving your own country?

Bring your culture with you, of course. Be proud of your heritage. But don't expect another country to cater to you just because you're from somewhere else. That's stupid.

[EverPhoenix]

rainichan wrote:

EverPhoenix wrote: there should be allowable exceptions for older people. but even then, they should make an effort. Most of the elderly people I help in my store make more of an effort to try to communicate with me than the people in my age group. I think that says something.

a lot of the older generations have a strong sense of pride and respect. so they try to learn the language as to not cause too much nuisance. well, except some older italian women ive seen, they can be downright bitchy.

younger people are lazier, and think that the country they move to will cater for them. time for a reality check.

[chicken]

i think its in your own interest to learn the countrys language. if you cant even order a pizza, how do you want to go to work? or find a home?

refugees are something different. for them, they should have the ability to visit a (free) language crash-course. if passed (an exam would be great), the refugee is allowed to stay in the country. if not, he has like 1-2 more tries.

[psychokind]

EverPhoenix wrote:

rainichan wrote: EverPhoenix wrote: there should be allowable exceptions for older people. but even then, they should make an effort. Most of the elderly people I help in my store make more of an effort to try to communicate with me than the people in my age group. I think that says something. a lot of the older generations have a strong sense of pride and respect. so they try to learn the language as to not cause too much nuisance. well, except some older italian women ive seen, they can be downright bitchy. younger people are lazier, and think that the country they move to will cater for them. time for a reality check.

it's the other way round here. older foreigners don't want to learn german. even LESS than the young ones. of course, that only applies to the lower social layer, but I'd throw them all out anyway. at least we have begun to make speaking the language and learning some of our history requirement for citizenship. but it's still not hard enough.

[Freedan]

chicken wrote:

refugees are something different. for them, they should have the ability to visit a (free) language crash-course. if passed (an exam would be great), the refugee is allowed to stay in the country. if not, he has like 1-2 more tries.

That was actually going to be my next point once I got some general arguments.

Refugees move to another country to escape the life of shit that is their old country. Whether it's war, or poverty, or persecution, or torture.... there are plenty of reasons for leaving it all behind.

Is it right to force someone to learn a new language when they've immigrated for those reasons? Bear in mind that English is frequently listed as one of the most difficult languages to learn, with our homonyms and such.

And what's the punishment if someone doesn't learn, or doesn't pass that exam? Deporting them back to whatever shithole they came from seems harsh; it could very well be a death sentence because they didn't learn English.

[EverPhoenix]

if theyve immigrated, for whatever reason, they should learn the language and integrate. this doesnt mean they need to become english professors, but at least a passable understanding of the language would help.

is it right to expect people to welcome them with open arms and wallets? to cater to their every whim, just because they come from an impoverished/oppressive country? anyone who expects to start a new life without some effort and work, no matter what they came from, shouldnt bother, imho. i know that sounds harsh, but i cant imagine myself being too welcoming to refugees who expect me to indirectly provide food and housing for them, while they sit on their asses all day and shit out layer upon layer of kids.
//sudanese people living in south australia are a shining example of what i just said. a lot of them even seem to think they are above the law, just to put a feathered hat on the whole issue

and just another point, it requires a significant amount of resolve to just leave everything behind. anyone able to do that would be equally able to put in sufficient effort to gain a basic understanding of the language, once theyve arrived.

[Dark_Gaia]

man sudanese are everywhere in nsw now too cos we let them come over n the government gives them 25 grand grants to start off with. n all the younger guys roam the streets dressed liek 50 cent tryin to fight people lol wtf. theres a big gang war in my town between aboriginals and sudanese thats just starting to die off a bit i think

[chicken]

Freedan, the Dark Knight wrote:

chicken wrote: refugees are something different. for them, they should have the ability to visit a (free) language crash-course. if passed (an exam would be great), the refugee is allowed to stay in the country. if not, he has like 1-2 more tries. That was actually going to be my next point once I got some general arguments. Refugees move to another country to escape the life of shit that is their old country. Whether it's war, or poverty, or persecution, or torture.... there are plenty of reasons for leaving it all behind. Is it right to force someone to learn a new language when they've immigrated for those reasons? Bear in mind that English is frequently listed as one of the most difficult languages to learn, with our homonyms and such. And what's the punishment if someone doesn't learn, or doesn't pass that exam? Deporting them back to whatever shithole they came from seems harsh; it could very well be a death sentence because they didn't learn English.

well, if you flee from your country, you leave behind EVERYTHING. your house, most of your belongings, friends, maybe family... i mean everything. and to leave behind everything, the shit really has to hit the fan.

next thing: getting over the border into another country will definitely not be the easiest thing. so IF YOU REALLY made it into a safe country, you'd do ANYTHING to stay there. so if it has to be to learn another language, well, then it has to be like that. after all, you WANTED to be in that country, right?

apart from that: i think german is way harder to learn than english... we have so many exceptions and weirdness in our grammar, it gives me the creeps if i think about it Oo

[Freedan]

If we assume that a law does get put in to place, and immigrants are forced to learn the language, that still leaves the question of what to do if they don't learn.

I realize I'm working with extremes here, but extremes need to be considered if a law were to be put in to place.

Assume a refugee escapes genocide and comes to your country. How long are they given to learn the language? A year? More? Less? How much do they have to learn to be considered acceptable? And if they don't learn that arbitrary amount, what happens? Do they get deported back to genocide-ville?

In Canada, we have strict rules against sending people to places where torture or execution is likely. It's considered a violation of human rights. I don't know the laws of many other countries, but I assume we're not the only country with rules like that.

So what punishment does that leave?

[EverPhoenix]

thats the issue. there isnt a punishment. cant send them back to their own country (although there have been incidents involving pakistani kids who have been deported), cant really do anything. the most realistic thing to do would be to cut them off until they learned the language. no government supporting their needless expenses.