Why would someone do that?

[inferiare]

chicken wrote:

guys, step down a little, would you? i also am one of those who listens to conspiracy theories (though i do not believe all of them). its just... well, fun, somehow. it gives you another POV and eventually, its always up to you what you believe and what not. around here, its quite hard to get any information about 9/11 at all. well, we had that moore film "fahrenheit 9/11" on tv (once) but yea, thats about it. i saw "loose change" like 4 times (we also watched it as part of a lecture at university) and another german movie called "under false flag". but i never came across information that really explained why the theories about an inside job should be wrong. so, please, give me information. otherwise you should rethink how you talk about people who believe in such stuff. i dont actually count myself to those people (because apart from the official story, i never saw or heard anything that would state that the conspiracy theories are wrong), but i think it could be possible. i dont know what really happened and you dont know what really happened. its just about which side comforts you more.

Nah, I'm with you there, chicken. I'm one of those who think there's more to the story than just OMG TERRORISTS LOLOLOLOL! because I think our government is a lying piece of shit. Because seriously, they just decided that OMG 9/11/01 IS THE DAY WE ATTACK!1 when it could have been any other 9/11's in the past... oh I dunno, decade? Yeaaaah I find that sort of... not right. :/

So yes, crazy, conspiracy theorist, etc., go ahead.

[Freedan]

I don't go for these conspiracy theories because there's any number of sources that thoroughly debunk those theories.

I find it harder to believe that the government pulled off a precise, systematic murder of thousands of its own people in such a spectacular fashion with no one either learning about it beforehand or spilling it to someone than the notion that some other country just doesn't like America.

[Lenc]

I would like to believe the terrorist threat is true, but I wonder.

Part of me is skeptical by nature and having heard some outrages theories (even the ones included with aliens which made me lol out loud) I cant seem to find evidence to truely debunk certained theories. Which isnt helped by the fact that the goverments are withholding information. And the fact some laws that were rejected first were then resubmitted under another name and passed.

These laws attack privacy and turn the nation into a police state. which isnt much a problem for me since i dont live there. Although its spreading toward the EU now too. National fingerprint databases, dna databases (which on it self to prevent crime are ok) but thats the problem. You can imagine hackers trying to get the information and i guess someone will succeed and also the fact that it proposes a great way to make money (like Insurances getting there hands on the dna database; now thats scary).

Now each time some law is passed for it something happened befor like a terrorist threat. I dont doubt if are terrorists there or not due to the fact that there always where such folks, but I dont understand how they became so active lately and all at once.

There is the fact that we are looking for a man in one country the hide and seek champion. Now I can understand they are looking for em there, but when you have 50+ nations looking for you in a country would you stay there? The fact that they contain oil fields which now happily fall in american and brittish hands is just to much of a coincidence and profitable situation to be all about just the "terrorists"

In war with a country can only go to a certained point. There is a point where you win. Now for a war driven economic thats not very profitable. Now with a terrorist threat your figthing an unnamed unseen enemy that could just be anyone. its an indefinite war because there will always be people who disagree with the way things are and decide to bomb stuff for it. So you now have a way of keeping weapons sales up.

Now I dont pick sides, but the goverments are acting fishy. And all this is pretty much text book. Divide and conquer. You want something done as a goverment you just scare the people to follow you. Which sounds logical. Its been done befor in in the past. (Like the witchhunting. Something posses a threat that divided christianity and they made a non exicting enemy to get the people together; the witches)

Some off you are like "no way it cant be, stfu and the goverment isnt lying" Now I understand for many it a sensitive subject and many have died that day. But if it means so much to you, why would you follow the goverment issued story when there is so much coincidence? wouldnt you rather dig the entire story out till you where 100% sure not leaving one doubt? Isnt it more painfull to find out years later that it was an "inside job" yet you trusted your goverment so fiercly? (thats hypothetical btw). So doubting and reading into conspiracy theories is not neccesarily a bad thing.

I am a bit 40/60 on this. I lean towards the fact that something is off here.
Wheither 9/11 staged or not it is quite clear that to many things happen like clockwork after it albeit slowly (to me that is). People are making billions on the war on terror.

I read the article's you posted freedan, so maybe 9/11 wasnt staged with explosives. All the articles prove is that its the planes that caused the chaos and they were not rigged with bombs or whatever. Thats nice besides the fact who gave em orders to do that which could be someone from the US (read could, not is). the focus of the articles is to much on the actual crash and burn that happened. My problem lies with everything taht happend afterwards. Also systematicly killing a "few thousand" in a land of millions to get something done is probably a price worth paying if there is to much money involved for certained people. And who gave orders or planned it is information that can only be obtained through perspectives and inquery which means people can lie. but evidence is hard to get as well since paper orders, emails and whatnot can be falsefied and or hacked. Same is true for the consipracy part. People active to bring down a goverments face can produce false evidence the same way.

Also the string of events I see could be part of something else that spawned post-9/11 and people higher up could use the painfull event to influence plans to there benefit.

Therefor I conclude that the entire thruth will never rise on this. At least not for a few decades.

Although badly written, this is my oppinion think of it as you will.

[EverPhoenix]

im not entirely sure where i stand on the whole conspiracy theory idea of 9/11. Lenc did raise some very good points about the 'world hide and seek champion', and how after the events of 9/11, the US are conveniently taking control of a certain oil-rich part of the world.

i havent read enough (or watched enough news) to know why the 9/11 attacks happened, or what may have spurred it, but as for the current (or more recent, anyway) terrorist/insurgent strikes in the middle-east against the US, there is almost an excuse for that. i mean, there is never an excuse for killing civilians and innocent (this is debatable, talking about the armed forces) men, but if you had a bad temper, strong religious beliefs and had people in your town with heavy weaponry, what would you do? from what i have studied, what they did there could *almost* legitimately count as jihad.

[Freedan]

EverPhoenix wrote:

and how after the events of 9/11, the US are conveniently taking control of a certain oil-rich part of the world.

Conspiracy theories generally rely on circular logic and claims supported by other claims.

What the 'war for oil' theory boils down to is:

- the U.S. uses oil.
- the middle-east has oil.
- therefore, the U.S. staged 9/11 to get it.

Is there a shred of evidence that isn't circumstantial? A coincidence proves nothing (you could find a coincidence between virtually any two things if you look hard enough).

As I've said before, it would have taken a lot of people to pull off such a feat. Plans get leaked, confidants squeal, and it makes no sense to kill your own people for oil wells. If the U.S. was so desperate for an energy source, wouldn't it make much more sense to invest in alternate energy methods? It isn't controversial, it encourages employment, you don't risk being labeled the most evil government in the world, and it doesn't cost over a trillion dollars.

[inferiare]

I'd like to think it was a ploy to be able to pass the Patriot Act since people would be riled up and not really thinking of the consequences to that. Plus, the government has used it to spy on its own people, isn't that nice?

On top of that, it was shoved through congress so fast that the congressmen didn't get a chance to read all 1000+ pages the night before they had to vote on it, so they just... voted on it.

Yeaaah, I'm not fond of my government. Would they set up a plan to kill 3000-5000 of their own just to get what they want? Most likely. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. The "war on terror" with our soldiers overseas is bullshit too. :/ We barely have enough soldiers over here to do anything if we have an attack on our soil again. I get calls at least once every month and a half/two months going OHEY DON'T YOU WANT TO JOIN THE MILITARY?! WE'LL PAY FOR YOUR SCHOOLING! and I turn them down each time. :/ Not my fault we're expending our forces and losing more and more every day!

...hnnng sorry, that went into a rant there. And don't get me wrong, I'm extremely proud of the soldiers who are fighting overseas (I had a friend in the Navy, worried about him for the 4 years he was gone), I just... don't think we should have to fight anymore and have more casualties.

[chicken]

Freedan wrote:

EverPhoenix wrote: and how after the events of 9/11, the US are conveniently taking control of a certain oil-rich part of the world. Conspiracy theories generally rely on circular logic and claims supported by other claims. What the 'war for oil' theory boils down to is: - the U.S. uses oil. - the middle-east has oil. - therefore, the U.S. staged 9/11 to get it. Is there a shred of evidence that isn't circumstantial? A coincidence proves nothing (you could find a coincidence between virtually any two things if you look hard enough). As I've said before, it would have taken a lot of people to pull off such a feat. Plans get leaked, confidants squeal, and it makes no sense to kill your own people for oil wells. If the U.S. was so desperate for an energy source, wouldn't it make much more sense to invest in alternate energy methods? It isn't controversial, it encourages employment, you don't risk being labeled the most evil government in the world, and it doesn't cost over a trillion dollars.

you might find something everywhere when you look hard, but here it's quite obvious.
plus: what raini said

it really IS kind of strange that after such a thing, every next step has to happen IMMEDIATELY. like the patriot act. taking away the inhabitants rights of privacy.

and as lenc said: european governments also try to push that through slowly.

im not trying to naysay here but just try to combine those things in your head:
- cameras. everywhere. to protect you from crime (i never got that, how should they help prevent it?)
- face analysis software. it actually works pretty damn well.
- trojans from the government. to prevent further terrorism inside the own country.
- the possibility to eavesdrop your calls without judicial decision.

actually, everything you do is being marked down somewhere. even when you buy stuff and use a "customer card" to eventually get bonuses and shit, you are marked in a system. your IP addresses are stored. you are willingly giving away what you do in your leisure time via social networks like FB (pictures and stuff).

i wonder how long its gonna take until we are so much under control, that we cannot speak free in the streets.

[EverPhoenix]

not meaning to cause misunderstanding, i never meant that the US planned it. it just seemed to go in their favour

[psychokind]

@chicken: they're using every other event to stricten control too (child porn ring exposed, killing sprees, normal metro murders), so this is no particular 9/11 phenomenom. besides, at least in germany the only new thing after 9/11 was the new passport. many attempts to tighten security after 9/11 were also tilted by our constitutional court.

basically, just for THAT, 9/11 would have been throwing pearls before swine (amazing this proverb exists in english ).

[Freedan]

Even if you were to accept that the gov't used 9/11 as an excuse to pass the Patriot Act, the whole 'conspiracy theory, inside job' notion still goes out the window. Like I've said from the start, the evidence for all of that is either circumstantial, misquoted/taken out of context, or outright lies.

Now, it's entirely possible that the Republicans saw a chance to rally people behind them while pro-American sentiment was running high, and pass some legislation that would otherwise be questionable on the side. Governments use tragedies to shine a spotlight on themselves all the time (our government says 'look what we're doing for Haiti"). But that's a far cry from killing their own people.

[inferiare]

Freedan wrote:

Even if you were to accept that the gov't used 9/11 as an excuse to pass the Patriot Act, the whole 'conspiracy theory, inside job' notion still goes out the window. Like I've said from the start, the evidence for all of that is either circumstantial, misquoted/taken out of context, or outright lies. Now, it's entirely possible that the Republicans saw a chance to rally people behind them while pro-American sentiment was running high, and pass some legislation that would otherwise be questionable on the side. Governments use tragedies to shine a spotlight on themselves all the time (our government says 'look what we're doing for Haiti"). But that's a far cry from killing their own people.

It's not like the US hasn't done this before. Sure there's opposing arguments, but with more evidence to him knowing it was going to happen? Yeah, I totally trust my government to do shit like this at any time. If they want something, they'll do anything to get it. If they want a war in the Middle East to be closer to lolol oil? They'll get their war. If they want to shove bullshit laws that invade my privacy despite the Constitution saying FUCK YOU THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE HERE, they'll get their law passed.

[psychokind]

rainichan wrote:

Freedan wrote: Even if you were to accept that the gov't used 9/11 as an excuse to pass the Patriot Act, the whole 'conspiracy theory, inside job' notion still goes out the window. Like I've said from the start, the evidence for all of that is either circumstantial, misquoted/taken out of context, or outright lies. Now, it's entirely possible that the Republicans saw a chance to rally people behind them while pro-American sentiment was running high, and pass some legislation that would otherwise be questionable on the side. Governments use tragedies to shine a spotlight on themselves all the time (our government says 'look what we're doing for Haiti"). But that's a far cry from killing their own people. It's not like the US hasn't done this before. Sure there's opposing arguments, but with more evidence to him knowing it was going to happen? Yeah, I totally trust my government to do shit like this at any time. If they want something, they'll do anything to get it. If they want a war in the Middle East to be closer to lolol oil? They'll get their war. If they want to shove bullshit laws that invade my privacy despite the Constitution saying FUCK YOU THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE HERE, they'll get their law passed.

if you think about the costs of the recent wars... you propably could have built up enough alternative energy sources to not need oil anymore. or "bribe" these countries for their support in the next 100 years or so.

the only "conspiracy" I believe about 9/11 is that there was huge cowboy building involved in the WTC. but only because my friends dad, whose company is specialized in renovating buildings from squishy building, said: "no scyscraper built after german building regulation would have collapsed like that. maybe they filled their foundation pillars with sand."

[Freedan]

rainichan wrote:

Freedan wrote: Even if you were to accept that the gov't used 9/11 as an excuse to pass the Patriot Act, the whole 'conspiracy theory, inside job' notion still goes out the window. Like I've said from the start, the evidence for all of that is either circumstantial, misquoted/taken out of context, or outright lies. Now, it's entirely possible that the Republicans saw a chance to rally people behind them while pro-American sentiment was running high, and pass some legislation that would otherwise be questionable on the side. Governments use tragedies to shine a spotlight on themselves all the time (our government says 'look what we're doing for Haiti"). But that's a far cry from killing their own people. It's not like the US hasn't done this before. Sure there's opposing arguments, but with more evidence to him knowing it was going to happen? Yeah, I totally trust my government to do shit like this at any time. If they want something, they'll do anything to get it. If they want a war in the Middle East to be closer to lolol oil? They'll get their war. If they want to shove bullshit laws that invade my privacy despite the Constitution saying FUCK YOU THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE HERE, they'll get their law passed.

There's a difference between the two situations.

In FDR's case (and I'm not condoning it), there was a war raging in which no one was really safe. He needed a loophole to enter in to it to help put a stop to it.

In this case, there was no real motivation. Oil? As I said before, alternate technology would be much more cost effective, and wouldn't cost thousands of lives. And laws can be struck down or repealed, so I doubt that was their motivation either.

This wasn't a conspiracy, it was political opportunism. Every government turns the circumstances to their advantage... every one. The whole conspiracy theory thing was created out of anti-Bush sentiment.