My Views on Everything

[SoulBlazerFan]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Again, I don't buy it. I'm fairly open-minded, but I just think that this conspiracy theory (and while I will gladly withdraw my idiot comment, I refuse to refer to this as anything but a conspiracy theory) is just another example of people believing anything they hear about the government except the good stuff. Yeah our government is corrupt, but frankly it seems like almost a fad to hate them... well at least to hate Republicans. I think this conspiracy theory would not have been nearly as well followed had Obama been in office during the time of the attacks.

Occam's razor isn't really being opened minded, IMO. Don't take it as an insult, that's not my intention.

I'm a believer in the anti-razor. Life is far too complicated for the simpliest truth to always be the correct one. To quote a famous author, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

For instance, take the Zodiac Killer case. They had a prime suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen. Several signs pointed to him, including the following; he'd said he was going to this park the same day two people were attacked. He came home with blood on his hands, and said he had went elsewhere to another park. He owned a "Zodiac brand watch," and the watch brand used the same crosshair symbol the Zodiac later used. He went to get a job as a bouncer. When the owner told him he didn't look the part, he said keep an eye on the paper, he'd see something in it that showed he could handle the job. Mere hours later, Zodiac broke his M.O. and killed cab driver Paul Stine.

A friend of his came forward and said, in 1964, a full five years before the killing spree began, Allen posed an interesting idea for a "book," about a killer who hunts people, and dogs the police at their stupidity for not catching him sooner. He claims Allen even suggested the killers name to be "Zodiac."

Also, one of Allen's favorite books was "The Most Dangerous Game," about hunting humans for sport... exactly what the Zodiac did. In fact, in a cryptogram, the Zodiac himself referenced to hunting humans as "The Most Dangerous Game." There are many others Zodiac connections, and if you're interested, google zodiackiller.com. Very interesting information.

All evidence, while circumstantional, would lead you to believe this guy was the Zodiac Killer, right?

Well, they happen to have a partial DNA profile of Zodiac. When compared to Allen's DNA, no match. To this day, he is still at large, assuming he's even alive now.

And I missed out on answering the cover-up idea earlier. Another claim was when the supposed Flight 93 docked at this airport, the entire crew/passengers were sent to another plane. This was evidenced by several people at the airport, which, if memory serves, was in Dallas. Witnesses claim to have seen Flight 93 land, passengers removed by Army guys, and pushed toward another plane, which took off not too long afterwards.

I don't believe it for a second, it just doesn't make sense. But one of the more interesting things I found in this instance, though, that would get me questioning the validity of Flight 93's crash, is that, every news reporter who saw the wreckage, didn't see any bodies. There have been tons of aircrafts that were downed, exploded upon impact, and bodies/body parts were scattered everywhere, while some remained in the hull. I could be highly mistaken, but I don't remember a single report from that day about any bodies being found.

Also- black boxes, and my argument about the passport. Even at 12, I thought the idea of a passport surviving an airplane explosion ludacris. As far as the black boxes, the plane that hit the Pentagon and Flight 93 both recorders were recovered. There are two- a voice recorder that continuously records the cockpit for a total of a half an hour, and a flight data recorder.

In the case of each plane, only one recorder survived- at the Pentagon it was the flight data. 93 was the voice recorder. Some of the tape is available on the internet somewhere- I listened to it a few years back.

As for the WTC- the official story is none of the four boxes were ever recovered. That doesn't seem that impossible- each plane crashed hundreds of feet in the air, and the explosion would've likely incinerated all four- right?

"They are built to survive an impact of enormous force - 3400 Gs - and a fire of 1100 degrees Celsius for one hour, somewhat higher than official estimates of the World Trade Center blaze."

Now, they could've been thrown free from the plane upon impact- but if that was the case, at least one would've turned up- there's no way a box would be destroyed if it can survive 3400 G's of force.

Which then leads me to believe that the boxes remained in the wreckage inside the towers. Reports state the towers never reached anywhere near the temperature that would've destroyed them. Even so, imagine the temperature was less, even 800 degrees farenheight. The buildings collapsed within an hour, which the force would've put out any fires, and left these black boxes under hundreds of feet of rumble.

Now, other reports- less reliable- claim three of the four were recovered by the FBI, and were tested. You can look this up- at least two firefighters claimed to have searched the wreckage, and at least saw one of the four boxes being handled by the FBI.

I find this less likely of a scenario, but there's eye witnesses from the crash site. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410B.html

Here's one article on this supposed cover-up. I'll give it to you, there's a good possibility someone just wanted to sell some books, and would make a hell of a story with a cover-up- but, just as hard as I find it to believe that a passport escaped a exploding plane, I find it harder to believe none of the black boxes were ever recovered, even remnants of them.

[Jason Tandro]

RE: Flamez
--

Oh hell yeah. Not even I am gonna argue that our government took advantage of the situation. I'm for the current wars in the middle east, but certain counter-measures on the domestic side were a little extreme.


RE: SoulBlazerFan
--

Come on man, do I ever take debate personally? I'm not gonna get offended man.

But your quote about eliminating the impossible does not seem to sync with this debate for one reason. This is one of the cases I have heard where it's not motivation or means that is being disputed (alone, that is) but the actual facts themselves are in dispute. Without all the facts we cannot make an informed decision.

People on one side say they have all the facts, and people on the other side say they have some. I am not so arrogant as to assume that everything that comes out of a conspiracy theorists mouth is a bald faced lie, some things don't add up about that day.

My concern is the overall, not the niggling little details. Overall I am 100% confident that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by terrorists, not our government.

[Freedan]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Yeah our government is corrupt, but frankly it seems like almost a fad to hate them... well at least to hate Republicans. I think this conspiracy theory would not have been nearly as well followed had Obama been in office during the time of the attacks.

I won't get in to the conspiracy theory thing, since everything I would have said has already been said. I just thought I'd add a bit to this part here.

It's not really a fad to hate on republicans. After 8 years controlling the country, they did quite a bit to deserve the flak they got.

The real fad is hating on whoever's in charge. Obama was seen as the saviour of the U.S. around election time, but after one year, people couldn't stop talking about what an idiot he is. In such a short time, he hasn't had any really colossal fuck-ups, but people don't like him anyway.

If Obama had been in office at the time, he would have gotten just as much shit as the republicans did.

[inferiare]

Jason Tandro wrote:

RE: Flamez -- Oh hell yeah. Not even I am gonna argue that our government took advantage of the situation. I'm for the current wars in the middle east, but certain counter-measures on the domestic side were a little extreme. RE: SoulBlazerFan -- Come on man, do I ever take debate personally? I'm not gonna get offended man. But your quote about eliminating the impossible does not seem to sync with this debate for one reason. This is one of the cases I have heard where it's not motivation or means that is being disputed (alone, that is) but the actual facts themselves are in dispute. Without all the facts we cannot make an informed decision. People on one side say they have all the facts, and people on the other side say they have some. I am not so arrogant as to assume that everything that comes out of a conspiracy theorists mouth is a bald faced lie, some things don't add up about that day. My concern is the overall, not the niggling little details. Overall I am 100% confident that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by terrorists, not our government.

So, I'm actually a bit curious. What do you think about JFK's assassination? I do believe it was already proven that Oswald was just someone to take the fall, but that would be one huge government cover up, right?

[SoulBlazerFan]

rainichan wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: RE: Flamez -- Oh hell yeah. Not even I am gonna argue that our government took advantage of the situation. I'm for the current wars in the middle east, but certain counter-measures on the domestic side were a little extreme. RE: SoulBlazerFan -- Come on man, do I ever take debate personally? I'm not gonna get offended man. But your quote about eliminating the impossible does not seem to sync with this debate for one reason. This is one of the cases I have heard where it's not motivation or means that is being disputed (alone, that is) but the actual facts themselves are in dispute. Without all the facts we cannot make an informed decision. People on one side say they have all the facts, and people on the other side say they have some. I am not so arrogant as to assume that everything that comes out of a conspiracy theorists mouth is a bald faced lie, some things don't add up about that day. My concern is the overall, not the niggling little details. Overall I am 100% confident that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by terrorists, not our government. So, I'm actually a bit curious. What do you think about JFK's assassination? I do believe it was already proven that Oswald was just someone to take the fall, but that would be one huge government cover up, right?

If you ask author Joe R. Landsdale, JFK was dyed black, his brain placed in the Pentagon broadcasting to his body, and his brain replaced with a bag of sand. Also, he's in a old folks home with the real Elvis, and there's a cowboy-esque mummy that sucks souls out of peoples asses.

The problem I find here is, I can't really make an educated debate on the JFK assassination. I didn't live during that age, so I don't know the details- why would the government kill a president? Perhaps he was getting in someone's way? Maybe he'd planned to out something secret- or maybe it was because he was being an ass, sleeping around with other women, and embarassing his post.

Or maybe, it was some lone psychopath's misguided ideals that lead to JFK's assassination. There's just not enough variables here. Whereas, 9/11, you have hundreds of hours of live video, hundreds if not thousands of witnesses, and more questions than answers.

[Lenc]

If 9/11 was an inside job or not doesnt really matter. You have 2 camps on that and that will rage against eachother for quite a while.

post 9/11 no one can deny some fishy stuff has been going on in many goverments. People benefited from it afterwards, but that doesnt mean t was planned by those people pre 9/11. Then again the goveremnt being really itchy with information and tapes they hold back isnt exactly helping.

Same with JFK some say it was a looney, others say it was because he was planning something the majority of the goverment didnt like at all. Unless all files of the case would be released publicly people will debate on it.

However when something happenend where people debate and have consiracy theories about and all case files get the nolongerclassified- stamp people will still debate the autenticity of those documents therefor not closing anything or bringing a subject to rest because all files are indeed forgeable.

Best thing to do is just to lay it to rest. leave it alone. Even if you uncover the thruth (whatever that maybe) those people will still be dead. People will still have mourned and or profited of it. Nobody will believe you.

Most important; it wont change anything at all.

And on the president matter. Maybe you dont like Obama, but internationaly he makes america more likeable then Bush did. At least he is trying something. We here in NL have the same prime minister for 4 kabinets and 3 of them have fallen. And now he is running again for a 5th time and polls show he is actually quite high on the ladder.

And at least in america your leader doesnt look like Harry Potter in his Mid-life crisis.


Edit: and SBF does have a point on the Black Boxes has any info about them ever been released?

[inferiare]

Lenc wrote:

If 9/11 was an inside job or not doesnt really matter. You have 2 camps on that and that will rage against eachother for quite a while. post 9/11 no one can deny some fishy stuff has been going on in many goverments. People benefited from it afterwards, but that doesnt mean t was planned by those people pre 9/11. Then again the goveremnt being really itchy with information and tapes they hold back isnt exactly helping. Same with JFK some say it was a looney, others say it was because he was planning something the majority of the goverment didnt like at all. Unless all files of the case would be released publicly people will debate on it. However when something happenend where people debate and have consiracy theories about and all case files get the nolongerclassified- stamp people will still debate the autenticity of those documents therefor not closing anything or bringing a subject to rest because all files are indeed forgeable. Best thing to do is just to lay it to rest. leave it alone. Even if you uncover the thruth (whatever that maybe) those people will still be dead. People will still have mourned and or profited of it. Nobody will believe you. Most important; it wont change anything at all. And on the president matter. Maybe you dont like Obama, but internationaly he makes america more likeable then Bush did. At least he is trying something. We here in NL have the same prime minister for 4 kabinets and 3 of them have fallen. And now he is running again for a 5th time and polls show he is actually quite high on the ladder. And at least in america your leader doesnt look like Harry Potter in his Mid-life crisis. Edit: and SBF does have a point on the Black Boxes has any info about them ever been released?

As far as I know about the black boxes, no. There is a show here in the USA that is about government coverups by a guy that did a lot in his younger years, and supposedly he got to hear what was on them/see them, but only 3 of the four were there. The one from Flight 93 was missing. Apparently, on these recordings (so was said), was that the hijackers were already in the cockpit, and the pilots were cool with it. It wasn't until later on that they were killed because they knew what was going to happen. For whatever reason though, they won't release the voice recorded things.

In my youtube findings I found a video talking about the black boxes and how it was a little suspect that the recovered 3 out of 4 from the two planes, but the passport was found on the streets. I know it was mentioned, and I know before my brain was mush, but now I can coherently comment on it: passports are paper laminated in plastic. I had one for myself a while back, and I've seen quite a few in my job. The first page, where the picture + info is, I do believe, is the only laminated page. If the black boxes really DID burn up in the wreckage, how the hell did the passport survive if it flew out of the pocket of the supposed terrorist unscathed, considering if everything was in flames by that point, it would have caught fire and burned up?

It's interesting to listen to at the least, and the last 40 seconds or so are really interesting, as well. I'll have to look into it, but, well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnI8glYF7o

[Jason Tandro]

RE: JFK

I don't know enough about the story behind it to make an informed decision. Despite my arguments against 9/11 I do not automatically assume the government is flawless, lol.

I am biased against conspiracy theories, I won't deny that, but I'd have to see what was presented. There is certainly a better case for his assassination from what I'm heard that 9/11 being an inside job.