Am I Supposed To Feel Sorry?

[Jason Tandro]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_immigration_arizona


--

Oh, shit. You mean people who came into this country ILLEGALLY are now having to go back home? There is no cease to my tears.

[inferiare]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Mexico
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-05-25-mexico-migrants_N.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWU01NIwGbg

If they want to bitch so much, they can go back to where they came from. If we have to be in their country legally in some way, shape, or form so they can keep themselves safe, WHY CAN'T WE? We have every right to do so. Again, if they don't like it, THEY CAN GO BACK WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

What ticks me off and what I'm sure ticks off those who are here legally, is that if our WONDERFUL ADMINISTRATION (sarcasm) adopts amnesty for illegals, why should those who are here legally have to try for American nationality? They can just come here illegally and get everything they want.

[SoulBlazerFan]

We can all thank the bleeding hearts for fighting for their "rights." Not that I don't think people should leave a country if they feel oppressed... but there's no reason these people can't go and get themselves citizenship. Plenty of people do it every day. Oh, right. It would constitute hard work and responsbility now, wouldn't it?

So, okay, let them live here with more rights than citizens. Let them drive cars without registrations or insurance, cause accidents, and the legal citizen gets screwed with the bill, and the worst that could happen to them is they get deported, and just come right on back in.

[Ratty Randnums]

Actually there is a reason these people can't "just go and get citizenship" namely that our immegration system is fucktarded and people will sometimes wait for YEARS on this list trying to become citizens.

If you've got a family to support are you going to wait years for an understaffed and overly complex and loop filled bureaucratic system to hopefully maybe possibly give you citizenship or are you going to run through the border to try to provide for your loved ones?

Add to this the fact that "tough immigration laws" make it so that anyone caught in this country illegally CAN NEVER attain citizenship and what's the point in even trying?
Meanwhile conservatives are attempting to repeal the 14th amendment, which was established so that blacks could be citizens, so they can say if a baby is born to Mexican parents in the US it isn't an American citizen. If you can't see the racist underpinnings in this action I can't help you.

These issues are not simple, they are not clean cut.

[SoulBlazerFan]

Actually, people make issues complex usually because they want something to argue about. The truth is, we have laws for a reason, and these people are breaking the law. People break them, and they should be punished. And yes, it is hard to obtain citizenship- but most of these people don't even bother to try.

Everything is long and drawn out in this country, every system in some way or another is broken. Patience is a virtue, but some people would rather take the easy way out than actually try. We still have these laws in place, and, if you're willing to run the risk of coming here and ruining your chance of becoming a legal citizen, you deserve to lose that right.

The law is in place for a reason. Some people want to make it an issue of race, as you are. Not everyone is a racist, sir. Some people just don't like others breaking the law and getting away with it.

[Ratty Randnums]

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

Actually, people make issues complex usually because they want something to argue about. The truth is, we have laws for a reason, and these people are breaking the law. People break them, and they should be punished. And yes, it is hard to obtain citizenship- but most of these people don't even bother to try. Everything is long and drawn out in this country, every system in some way or another is broken. Patience is a virtue, but some people would rather take the easy way out than actually try. We still have these laws in place, and, if you're willing to run the risk of coming here and ruining your chance of becoming a legal citizen, you deserve to lose that right. The law is in place for a reason. Some people want to make it an issue of race, as you are. Not everyone is a racist, sir. Some people just don't like others breaking the law and getting away with it.

Actually people like to look at the world in such simple terms, as you are doing, because it makes them feel good, but that doesn't make such simplistic right and wrong views an accurate reflection of reality, sir. When you need to support someone you love and have to make a decision that breaks a law to do so, then you come back to me and talk about how laws are "there for a reason" and people who break them "deserve to be punished".
Do most people from Mexico come here mainly for such selfless reasons? No I'd say not, but putting all of them into the same bunch is oversimplifying the nature and circumstances of a group. Racism has been shoved into the argument by the conservatives who like in Arizona have or are trying to basically write racial profiling into law, and change the citizenship laws to prevent the racial and cultural make-up of the country from shifting as more immigrants flow it. Seeming like nothing so much as Israel's racist laws. So don't underhandedly insult me and insinuate I am the one trying to put race into the mix, it's already clearly a part of the issue for anyone who doesn't choose to blind themselves or pretend not to see it.

The fact is though that the same people who damn illegals for coming into the country also hire them for cheap manual labor. If it wasn't for illegal immigration the cogs of the capitalist machine in both America and Mexico would suffer greatly. Politically illegal immigration is merely a convenient scapegoat for the problems the aforementioned capitalist system causes and an easy mechanism to stir up racial hatred and cultural division in the lower classes.

[inferiare]

...the law that Arizona put into place is a lessened version of one we already have in place in our Constitution. It has nothing to do with racial profiling or anything of the sort. They can only ask for papers if they have stopped them for another matter (speeding, domestic violence, etc) and have a suspicion that they're here illegally.

I have a coworker who got her US citizenship either last year or the year before. She applied. She went through the motions. She abided by the law of the country she is now a citizen of.

As it is, Arizona has problems with people crossing the border and killing those who live near the border, drug trafficking, and drug warlords killing off Americans. So uh. Why the hell shouldn't we stop that problem? It is damaging us as a nation, why shouldn't we keep the inhabitants safe?

Inb4 "Americans do it too", already know that. But if the problem can be lessened from EVERYWHERE and not just Mexico, I'm all for it.

[Jason Tandro]

@Ratty: Illegal is illegal. These people are breaking the law. That's pretty simple.

I agree that the motivations and means are much more complex and that most of these people mean no harm to our country but are just trying to survive, but what are you suggesting we do?

Open our borders completely? Yeah, that will work.

Reform immigration? A good idea, but what EXACTLY needs to be reformed? You say it's "retarded". What is?

The fact is, we do not need to punish these people, we just need to deport them. End of story.

[SoulBlazerFan]

Quote:

When you need to support someone you love and have to make a decision that breaks a law to do so, then you come back to me and talk about how laws are "there for a reason" and people who break them "deserve to be punished".

Trying to negate someone's argument with this childish rhetoric seldom works. It's a weak and tired move, and I expected better from you. I may not agree with your opinion, but I would never disrespect you. I expect the same common ground back.

The problem is, not only are they breaking the law, the are breaking other laws as well.

They live here and don't pay taxes. If they get caught, what happens? They get deported. If I didn't pay taxes? I'd have to pay it all back, and/or end up in jail. Same with what Raini said... some sneak in here and commit crimes. If we let them here, we're also letting in more drugs, more gang violence- the list goes on and on.

Let me give an unemotional argument: To make us pay taxes and punish us for not paying them with jail, while these people who are here illegally in the first place can do it and get the same punishment that they would receive for the crime they were already committing is insane. Where is your no taxation without representation there? If we as legal citizens of this country have to be held to a certain standard, why aren't they?

And now back to that quote: your statement there is extremely vague, and is completely open to interpretation. On the same account, if I were to walk into a bank tomorrow, and rob it at gunpoint, end up killing a person, I should be punished, right? What if I had to rob the bank to save someone I loves life. Does that make it better? Do I deserve a lesser punishment or none at all because of such righteous indignation?

Quote:

Actually people like to look at the world in such simple terms, as you are doing, because it makes them feel good, but that doesn't make such simplistic right and wrong views an accurate reflection of reality, sir.

A better man than me once said "The law is not always absolutely perfect, but nevertheless, the law is absolute."

An accuracte reflection of reality is this: We have laws in place for a reason. If you break them, there should be an equal and fair punishment for said crime. I'd have no problem if they changed the law entirely, but they haven't. There are legal avenues to get citizenship. If people forgo those, I could care less. If they're caught and deported, it was there choice to break the law.

Quote:

So don't underhandedly insult me and insinuate I am the one trying to put race into the mix, it's already clearly a part of the issue for anyone who doesn't choose to blind themselves or pretend not to see it.

I won't pretend to know what goes on inside your head. Likewise, I would ask you not to do the same to me. It's almost as insulting as the first statement I have quoted.

I have to agree with Raini on this point here:

Quote:

As it is, Arizona has problems with people crossing the border and killing those who live near the border, drug trafficking, and drug warlords killing off Americans. So uh. Why the hell shouldn't we stop that problem? It is damaging us as a nation, why shouldn't we keep the inhabitants safe?

You hit the nail on the head. People can argue it's racial profiling. Others would argue it's for the American safety... people still go on and on about how the Patriot Act infringes on our rights. Now, please, take a minute and think about this question: Does this law infringe on American rights? We could say it profiles anybody suspected of being here illegally- that includes citizens who are already American. Who should be worried about this law? Only the people it will affect- the people who have broken the law in the first place! Isn't that what laws are supposed to be for?

[inferiare]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Open our borders completely? Yeah, that will work.

For as much as people cry for this option, I'm inclined to believe that the common sense involved to realize that if we open our borders to everyone ever, we're going to get a TON of people in here who want to harm us.

You know, the same people who we've been fighting overseas in Iraq/Afghanistan for the past 7+ years?

Yeah. That seems like the super smart idea. We don't want terrorists in here to destroy our country, but we want to open up our borders for all.

(Jase: I know you were being sarcastic with the "yeah, that will work" comment so I'm not attacking this idea at all, just to clarify.)

[SoulBlazerFan]

Quote:

You know, the same people who we've been fighting overseas in Iraq/Afghanistan for the past 7+ years?

9+ years! Ask me September 10th of 2001 if it were a good idea to completely open the borders. Ask anybody. They probably would've said yes. I know I would've.

Most of you didn't live anywhere near New York, didn't see the real horror of it all. The news can only portray so much human suffering- it's not as horrible as seeing it for yourself.

I stood on the edge of a beach, looking out into the horizon at the city. The sky was filled with a black fog of smoke. The water changed in taste. I saw kids my age, crying because their parents worked there. Died there.

Opening our borders is an aultruistic approach to a problem. The world isn't black and white, I know that, but some issues are, whether we want to view them as that is another issue entirely. If we choose to ignore the larger dangers out there, then we're being ignorant to those very real dangers. We can call it an issue of race. I'd rather think it's an issue of national safety and security.

[Jason Tandro]

@SBF: Be careful, SoulBlazer, keep talking like that and you'll get accused of having a bias, lol.

There's a great term that comes to mind based on your retort to Ratty, which I'm surprised you didn't bring up.

We can't "make every man a law unto himself." If we decide that there are exceptions to the law, then everyone is an exception. If we change the law, then so be it, but as it stands right now we can't allow that.

Ratty, your argument seems to be coming from a solely emotional mindset. I've yet to see a rational argument for your side (well, not really that, but rather a strictly unemotional one, for lack of a better term). What exactly is your case?

[Ratty Randnums]

Jason Tandro wrote:

@Ratty: Illegal is illegal. These people are breaking the law. That's pretty simple. I agree that the motivations and means are much more complex and that most of these people mean no harm to our country but are just trying to survive, but what are you suggesting we do? Open our borders completely? Yeah, that will work. Reform immigration? A good idea, but what EXACTLY needs to be reformed? You say it's "retarded". What is? The fact is, we do not need to punish these people, we just need to deport them. End of story.

Blindly following the creedo that "Illegal is illegal" is valuing law over justice. Which I don't do, the system isn't perfect and I'm not advocating that it should be abandoned, but if you see a law that you don't believe is right, don't just blindly allow it but protest it.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

Quote: When you need to support someone you love and have to make a decision that breaks a law to do so, then you come back to me and talk about how laws are "there for a reason" and people who break them "deserve to be punished". Trying to negate someone's argument with this childish rhetoric seldom works. It's a weak and tired move, and I expected better from you. I may not agree with your opinion, but I would never disrespect you. I expect the same common ground back.

Asking someone to think about the implications of their absolutest philosophy is not disrespecting them.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

The problem is, not only are they breaking the law, the are breaking other laws as well. They live here and don't pay taxes. If they get caught, what happens? They get deported. If I didn't pay taxes? I'd have to pay it all back, and/or end up in jail. Same with what Raini said... some sneak in here and commit crimes. If we let them here, we're also letting in more drugs, more gang violence- the list goes on and on. Let me give an unemotional argument: To make us pay taxes and punish us for not paying them with jail, while these people who are here illegally in the first place can do it and get the same punishment that they would receive for the crime they were already committing is insane. Where is your no taxation without representation there?

It's right at the part where instead of deportation and allowing profiling we fix immigration and nationalization process to make coming to the country to be a worker legally easier.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

If we as legal citizens of this country have to be held to a certain standard, why aren't they?

I want to hold them to the same standard, never said I didn't. It's the mentality that the only solution is a massive deportation that says they should be treated with something other than human dignity and responsibility. A way of thinking that again would devastate American industry with the sudden loss of cheap labor in jobs US americans wouldn't do for nearly as low a price/without benefits if at all.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

And now back to that quote: your statement there is extremely vague, and is completely open to interpretation. On the same account, if I were to walk into a bank tomorrow, and rob it at gunpoint, end up killing a person, I should be punished, right?

Not all laws are created equal, not all laws are just. Killing someone and stealing resources is different that illegal entry into a country.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

What if I had to rob the bank to save someone I loves life. Does that make it better? Do I deserve a lesser punishment or none at all because of such righteous indignation?

I believe it would be a sad comment on our society if we let things get bad enough for you to have to do that, but with the way health insurance works I wouldn't be surprised.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

A better man than me once said "The law is not always absolutely perfect, but nevertheless, the law is absolute." An accuracte reflection of reality is this: We have laws in place for a reason. If you break them, there should be an equal and fair punishment for said crime.

Again, not all laws are right or adventagious to a population, look at prohibition.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

I'd have no problem if they changed the law entirely, but they haven't. There are legal avenues to get citizenship. If people forgo those, I could care less. If they're caught and deported, it was there choice to break the law.

Again, I don't think you're quiet understanding what a clusterfuck these "legal avenus" you're talking about are. And when a choice is like "break the law or you and your loved ones starve" it's not really a choice.

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

Quote: So don't underhandedly insult me and insinuate I am the one trying to put race into the mix, it's already clearly a part of the issue for anyone who doesn't choose to blind themselves or pretend not to see it. I won't pretend to know what goes on inside your head. Likewise, I would ask you not to do the same to me. It's almost as insulting as the first statement I have quoted.

Again not intended as an insult, though your use of "sir" along with the rest of your comment was.

I have to agree with Raini on this point here:

SoulBlazerFan wrote:

You hit the nail on the head. People can argue it's racial profiling. Others would argue it's for the American safety... people still go on and on about how the Patriot Act infringes on our rights. Now, please, take a minute and think about this question: Does this law infringe on American rights? We could say it profiles anybody suspected of being here illegally- that includes citizens who are already American. Who should be worried about this law? Only the people it will affect- the people who have broken the law in the first place! Isn't that what laws are supposed to be for?

It impacts people who are here legally who will be subjected to this profiling. It basically singles out a certain ethnic group and encourages the authorities to offically think of them in a certain way.

inferiare wrote:

...the law that Arizona put into place is a lessened version of one we already have in place in our Constitution. It has nothing to do with racial profiling or anything of the sort. They can only ask for papers if they have stopped them for another matter (speeding, domestic violence, etc) and have a suspicion that they're here illegally. I have a coworker who got her US citizenship either last year or the year before. She applied. She went through the motions. She abided by the law of the country she is now a citizen of. As it is, Arizona has problems with people crossing the border and killing those who live near the border, drug trafficking, and drug warlords killing off Americans. So uh. Why the hell shouldn't we stop that problem? It is damaging us as a nation, why shouldn't we keep the inhabitants safe? Inb4 "Americans do it too", already know that. But if the problem can be lessened from EVERYWHERE and not just Mexico, I'm all for it.

A "suspicion" that they're here illegally when Latinos are the fastest growing segment of the population. What do you think will constitute/arouse a suspicion?


--------
The fighting we've been doing in the middle east hasn't "pinned down" the terrorists so they can't come over here first of all. For every time we blow up a building or kills someone's family like SBF just described, we're only making many more people willing to do anything they can to harm us as a country.

My case is to look at the problem realistically. Is national security at risk? Yes, is opening the door for racial profiling in our police departments a good idea? No. Will blindly deporting all the cheap labor that illegal immigrants provide be a good idea? No, it will harm out country and Mexico as well. So my stance is basically this, instead of zealously enforcing a law that would be harmful for us as a country, how about we reconsider and reform our immigration system?

[Jason Tandro]

Ratty Randnums wrote:

Jason Tandro wrote: @Ratty: Illegal is illegal. These people are breaking the law. That's pretty simple. I agree that the motivations and means are much more complex and that most of these people mean no harm to our country but are just trying to survive, but what are you suggesting we do? Open our borders completely? Yeah, that will work. Reform immigration? A good idea, but what EXACTLY needs to be reformed? You say it's "retarded". What is? The fact is, we do not need to punish these people, we just need to deport them. End of story. Blindly following the creedo that "Illegal is illegal" is valuing law over justice. Which I don't do, the system isn't perfect and I'm not advocating that it should be abandoned, but if you see a law that you don't believe is right, don't just blindly allow it but protest it.

That's actually an interesting way of arguing this. Arguing the legality of something pins the argument in a corner, but arguing the right or wrong of a law is far more interpretive. Mind you I still disagree with you, I believe the dangers of man becoming a law unto himself outweighs all that, but it is an interesting way of looking at it.

You say though that the law is unjust. How is it unjust? Not the arizona law, but specifically the legal tradition of immigration. How is illegal immigration justified when there are perfectly legal and viable options available?

[Ratty Randnums]

Jason Tandro wrote:

Ratty Randnums wrote: Jason Tandro wrote: @Ratty: Illegal is illegal. These people are breaking the law. That's pretty simple. I agree that the motivations and means are much more complex and that most of these people mean no harm to our country but are just trying to survive, but what are you suggesting we do? Open our borders completely? Yeah, that will work. Reform immigration? A good idea, but what EXACTLY needs to be reformed? You say it's "retarded". What is? The fact is, we do not need to punish these people, we just need to deport them. End of story. Blindly following the creedo that "Illegal is illegal" is valuing law over justice. Which I don't do, the system isn't perfect and I'm not advocating that it should be abandoned, but if you see a law that you don't believe is right, don't just blindly allow it but protest it. That's actually an interesting way of arguing this. Arguing the legality of something pins the argument in a corner, but arguing the right or wrong of a law is far more interpretive. Mind you I still disagree with you, I believe the dangers of man becoming a law unto himself outweighs all that, but it is an interesting way of looking at it. You say though that the law is unjust. How is it unjust? Not the arizona law, but specifically the legal tradition of immigration. How is illegal immigration justified when there are perfectly legal and viable options available?

I don't really see what's so novel about speaking up against a law that you disagree with. After all laws are supposed to come from the people. Even indirectly in a democratic republic such as this.