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PostSoulBlazerFan Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:09 pm   Post subject: The Darker Nature of Man Reply with quote

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I'm sort of surprised this hasn't been made a topic yet, because it is a subject I am quite interested in understanding.

There's an old addage that says "everyone has a darkside." I've seen this truth to be self evident; most of us hide our darker nature beneath the surface- and at times, it peers it's little head out, needing to be fed in someway. This darkness can vary in degree, from minor feeling to steal to the extreme side of the spectrum. (I'll let you speculate as to what I mean by that last statement)

Others have no problem showing their darker self... it's their good part that is hidden away beneath anger and dispair. This is something I cannot understand... how can a person let their nicer half hide while their cruel side takes over?

I feel I have my own darkside, something I've pretended wasn't there. I've never had to call upon it recently- I was a shitty little kid, very selfish, always wanting to be satisfied, never having enough. In another topic I told you about how I was annoyed with my sisters for being so selfish... I remember now there was a time I wasn't so differerent.

Since my parents split up, however, that all changed. I've in some ways become a better person, but at times I feel the need to berate someone, to want instead of wanting to give... people can change, but only by so much. I fight that nature everyday, and win, but there are various external forces, failures, of my own doing and of others- that make me want to be that uncaring person again.

So yes, I do believe we all have a darkside. Just for the sake of the current argument, I'm not going to even get into the nuture vs. nature aspect of this- I'll save that one for down the road.

So the question I ask is, how true are you to the real you? Do you feel you have a darkside beneath the surface, and if so, do you at times call upon it? Does it fight to be "you?"
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Postpsychokind Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:49 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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I've also talked about this a lot, and I've come to one simple understanding:

the homo sapiens sapiens is the most aggressive "thinking and feeling" creature on this planet, and social standards define some forms of living out this aggressive nature as evil, dark side or whatever you call it.

for myself, I don't consider having a dark side, because I don't believe there is something like that. there are the standards and their causality (mostly some form of repression or punishment), and you can try to find out back doors or how to avoid them. it's just that some are better doing that, some value them higher or some don't find them worthy at all.
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Postchicken Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:51 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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of course we do. just think about what would be, if we didnt? and i use this phrase purposely: "there is no light without darkness".

true, it should be ones desire to seek the path where you dont need your "dark side" anymore. but until you can actually walk that path, there is no need to block that side of yours out. instead, try to live with it and eventually alter it. accept it as part of you and work on yourself.
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PostJason Tandro Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:12 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Hi, Jason Tandro, I don't believe we've met.

My entire backstory is based on this concept although it takes a very literal form. The darkside taking a physical form.

In all seriousness my take on this argument:

Speaking religiously, the natural man is neutral. It takes care of itself and it's family but does not aspire to be anything more than another beast of the field.

We are pulled by a higher power (I'm trying to be as general as possible for the sake of argument) to aspire to acts of great good. We are also pulled by a "Satan" of sorts to commit acts of great evil.

The acts of evil can at times seem more seductive because they lead to more immediate results, (we refer to this as pleasure). The long term acts of good may seem more difficult but lead to lasting results (joy).

And I use the term "pull" lightly, because ultimately we must make our own decisions. I do not believe in any form of "predestination" we must make our own decisions. The reason evil can be more seductive is because it is closer to our base instincts. (There's a saying: "The natural man is an enemy of God.")

Whether you believe this to be a religious event or not it comes down to a base idea where it's not so much a "light side" and "dark side" that exists within us at all times. It's more of an internal battle to decide which path we are going to live by.

I've taken the easy path many many times in my life and it might seem immediately gratifying but it doesn't help in the long term.
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Postpsychokind Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:57 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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chicken wrote:
"there is no light without darkness".


damn you Very Happy and curse me, because I forgot this.
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PostMiss Prime Blue Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:57 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Dark and Light, one of my favorite concepts.

I believe that rather than two "sides", there's a blank canvas that is painted on you when you're born and when you go through life - with everything you have experienced and personally aspire to be.

Then, as you go through life, these experiences change you, or might change you, for better or worse. And the canvas gets filled with all of these things.

Then, ultimately, you choose who you want to be. In most cases, however. There are some situations where you really have little choice, but most of the time you do.

People make decisions everyday, based on who they want to be, without even realizing it. How you treat people everyday, matters, and how you're treated everyday, matters.

Quote:
I feel I have my own darkside, something I've pretended wasn't there. I've never had to call upon it recently- I was a shitty little kid, very selfish, always wanting to be satisfied, never having enough


Kids are narcissistic by default, it's one of the developmental phases of life. Usually, you're supposed to grow out of it, or most of it, in adulthood. Those who don't, are the true shitheads.

Usually, the experiences of adulthood are supposed to balance all that, but things go wrong when they aren't balanced.
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Postpsychokind Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:48 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Miss Prime Blue wrote:


Kids are narcissistic by default, it's one of the developmental phases of life. Usually, you're supposed to grow out of it, or most of it, in adulthood. Those who don't, are the true shitheads.


this is the other point of view. as far as I know, the basically "neutral" human and the "evil but restricted" one are the common theories. at least we learned that in sociology Smile
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PostJason Tandro Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:24 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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psychokind wrote:
Miss Prime Blue wrote:


Kids are narcissistic by default, it's one of the developmental phases of life. Usually, you're supposed to grow out of it, or most of it, in adulthood. Those who don't, are the true shitheads.


this is the other point of view. as far as I know, the basically "neutral" human and the "evil but restricted" one are the common theories. at least we learned that in sociology Smile


Narccism isn't as great a problem as arrogance. The two are similar but related. Narcissitic people love themselves and think they're great and perfect. Arrogant people, however, think that they're better than other people. Narccism is internal, Arrogance is external.

I say I'm arrogant but in reality I lean more towards narcissm, except I'm far from thinking I'm perfect. Frankly it's hard to distinguish between high self-esteem and narcissm, and people with low self-esteem tend to think that confident people are arrogant while people with high self-esteem think people with low self-esteem are just whiners.

That's another problem with the misconception. I make jokes at my own expense and so people say I must have low self-esteem. We all know that's not true at all. Like I said, I'm borderline narcisstic at times.


"Confidence. It is the food of the wise man, but the liqour of the fool."
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PostMiss Prime Blue Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:25 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Jason Tandro wrote:
psychokind wrote:
Miss Prime Blue wrote:


Kids are narcissistic by default, it's one of the developmental phases of life. Usually, you're supposed to grow out of it, or most of it, in adulthood. Those who don't, are the true shitheads.


this is the other point of view. as far as I know, the basically "neutral" human and the "evil but restricted" one are the common theories. at least we learned that in sociology Smile


Narccism isn't as great a problem as arrogance. The two are similar but related. Narcissitic people love themselves and think they're great and perfect. Arrogant people, however, think that they're better than other people. Narccism is internal, Arrogance is external.

I say I'm arrogant but in reality I lean more towards narcissm, except I'm far from thinking I'm perfect. Frankly it's hard to distinguish between high self-esteem and narcissm, and people with low self-esteem tend to think that confident people are arrogant while people with high self-esteem think people with low self-esteem are just whiners.

That's another problem with the misconception. I make jokes at my own expense and so people say I must have low self-esteem. We all know that's not true at all. Like I said, I'm borderline narcisstic at times.


"Confidence. It is the food of the wise man, but the liqour of the fool."


Actually - Clinical Narcissism is a disorder of the personality where the person has a dysfunctional (or "Inflated") view of the self. It's quite the opposite.

True Narcissists are narcissistic because they have no self-love, only an image of a perfect self. Therefore, they need to love an image because they are incapable of loving their real selves. Hence, their disorder is so because they hate themselves to a degree where they need to create a fictional version of themselves that they can "love", but it's really not like actual self-love, just admiration.

There's a difference between the disorder and the primary narcissism found in childhood, however.

Narcissists are usually arrogant, but without any real reason rooted in reality. Their hubris is only an extension of their inflated-self (and world) view.

And it's easy to distinguish "high self-esteem" (which, I don't personally believe exists) from narcissism. (Clinical) Narcissists usually have very low self-esteem, which is why they need to cover it with an image of perfection; to a Narcissist, it's all about image.

How you treat others usually stems from how you view yourself. If you define yourself as a "narcissist", you'd need to know the difference between a simply arrogant/self-centered person, and a person with an actual narcissistic personality disorder.

Usually, there's a grand difference - clinical narcissists actually lack the capacity for empathy and care for anyone else - and simply arrogant people may not lack empathy, but usually hold themselves in higher regard than anyone else. It doesn't mean they cannot care for people, however. Well, usually. It depends on the person.

What is defined as a Clinical (or even Malignant) Narcissist, is not a good thing to be.

There is a marked difference between actual confidence and arrogance. Arrogance is ego-based, and confidence is self-image based.

Studied it in college, and by myself for a few years.
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PostFreedan Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:19 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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I'd say yes, everyone has a 'dark side' to them. If they didn't, there would be no need for a concept of morality.

People aren't naturally good or bad, only their actions are; and they're capable of either. Being 'evil' is generally easier, because it takes more effort to do good for people than to not. Also, being selfish pays off for the individual. When you lie, or steal, or look out for yourself over others, you get something out of it, so it can seem like the more attractive action.

But people are social animals, and being selfish is a bad way to ensure survival of the group. So we have a conscience, and developed a concept of a moral compass to point us towards 'good'.

Yes, I do wrong. I've lied, and I insult others behind their back, and sometimes I look out for my own interests more than others. I was generally a good kid; I've been a good guy all my life. But everyone has done things they shouldn't have, and anyone who can't name at least a few things like that isn't trying hard enough to remember. Or they're lying.

I like to think that for me, though, the good vastly outweighs the bad. I'm no saint, but I do what I can to give and work for others.
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Postpsychokind Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:45 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Miss Prime Blue wrote:
Jason Tandro wrote:
psychokind wrote:
Miss Prime Blue wrote:


Kids are narcissistic by default, it's one of the developmental phases of life. Usually, you're supposed to grow out of it, or most of it, in adulthood. Those who don't, are the true shitheads.


this is the other point of view. as far as I know, the basically "neutral" human and the "evil but restricted" one are the common theories. at least we learned that in sociology Smile


Narccism isn't as great a problem as arrogance. The two are similar but related. Narcissitic people love themselves and think they're great and perfect. Arrogant people, however, think that they're better than other people. Narccism is internal, Arrogance is external.

I say I'm arrogant but in reality I lean more towards narcissm, except I'm far from thinking I'm perfect. Frankly it's hard to distinguish between high self-esteem and narcissm, and people with low self-esteem tend to think that confident people are arrogant while people with high self-esteem think people with low self-esteem are just whiners.

That's another problem with the misconception. I make jokes at my own expense and so people say I must have low self-esteem. We all know that's not true at all. Like I said, I'm borderline narcisstic at times.


"Confidence. It is the food of the wise man, but the liqour of the fool."


Actually - Clinical Narcissism is a disorder of the personality where the person has a dysfunctional (or "Inflated") view of the self. It's quite the opposite.

True Narcissists are narcissistic because they have no self-love, only an image of a perfect self. Therefore, they need to love an image because they are incapable of loving their real selves. Hence, their disorder is so because they hate themselves to a degree where they need to create a fictional version of themselves that they can "love", but it's really not like actual self-love, just admiration.

There's a difference between the disorder and the primary narcissism found in childhood, however.

Narcissists are usually arrogant, but without any real reason rooted in reality. Their hubris is only an extension of their inflated-self (and world) view.

And it's easy to distinguish "high self-esteem" (which, I don't personally believe exists) from narcissism. (Clinical) Narcissists usually have very low self-esteem, which is why they need to cover it with an image of perfection; to a Narcissist, it's all about image.

How you treat others usually stems from how you view yourself. If you define yourself as a "narcissist", you'd need to know the difference between a simply arrogant/self-centered person, and a person with an actual narcissistic personality disorder.

Usually, there's a grand difference - clinical narcissists actually lack the capacity for empathy and care for anyone else - and simply arrogant people may not lack empathy, but usually hold themselves in higher regard than anyone else. It doesn't mean they cannot care for people, however. Well, usually. It depends on the person.

What is defined as a Clinical (or even Malignant) Narcissist, is not a good thing to be.

There is a marked difference between actual confidence and arrogance. Arrogance is ego-based, and confidence is self-image based.

Studied it in college, and by myself for a few years.


wow, that sums it up very well! kudos!

now I'm interessted in finding out why do you believe there is no "high self esteem"?

also, I don't believe in that:
Quote:
How you treat others usually stems from how you view yourself. If you define yourself as a "narcissist", you'd need to know the difference between a simply arrogant/self-centered person, and a person with an actual narcissistic personality disorder.

you can treat other people completely at random without any given reason or relation to your self-esteem. my girlfriend, who is an ultimatively good human and likes every human in principle, sometimes bases her exceptions of the "everyone is good"-rule without any reason. which means, sometimes she says "I find him/her unlikeable" and can't explain why.
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PostJason Tandro Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:40 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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@MPB: I'm sorry, what? You don't believe in high self-esteem? So if you feel good about yourself and take pride in your accomplishments, it must be a disorder of some kind.

That's actually very sad.
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Posttay120n64 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:47 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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psychokind wrote:
also, I don't believe in that:
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How you treat others usually stems from how you view yourself. If you define yourself as a "narcissist", you'd need to know the difference between a simply arrogant/self-centered person, and a person with an actual narcissistic personality disorder.

you can treat other people completely at random without any given reason or relation to your self-esteem. my girlfriend, who is an ultimately good human and likes every human in principle, sometimes bases her exceptions of the "everyone is good"-rule without any reason. which means, sometimes she says "I find him/her unlikeable" and can't explain why.


People who are self-aware can treat people completely at random. Many people are so wrapped up in themselves or in their world that they have no conscious control on how they treat people.
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PostMiss Prime Blue Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:58 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote

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Jason Tandro wrote:
@MPB: I'm sorry, what? You don't believe in high self-esteem? So if you feel good about yourself and take pride in your accomplishments, it must be a disorder of some kind.

That's actually very sad.


No, sorry I didn't clarify. I was typing the post and doing something else at the same time, lol.

What I meant to say was - I don't believe in "high" self-esteem, I believe in healthy self-esteem. While healthy self-esteem is balanced, low is not, and high is not. Healthy is right in the middle.

And something can only be marked as a disorder if it's a disordered pattern of thinking. Hence, "disorder".

Also, I still do believe that while you can treat people completely at random regardless of how you feel about yourself, how you treat people in general stems from how you view yourself, and therefore other people.

This doesn't mean you're perfect or treat people perfectly all the time, or that you're horrible and treat people horribly all the time.

What it does mean is that, if, for example, you are an an unhappy, self-loathing person, most likely, you will have a drab overall world view, and will usually see people as you see yourself -- through your own dark lens -- and treat them accordingly. Doesn't have to always be that way, but sometimes it is. What i'm getting at is projection, and how people use it to subconsciously rid themselves of things they don't like about themselves. We all do it.

I'm really self-aware; and to the point where I can point flaws in myself and other people, and see myself and others objectively. When I'm wrong, I usually know it -- but i'm human too, so obviously i'm not perfect.

Sometimes people don't really like this, lol. I'm usually honest, blunt and to the point, and some people mistake this for different things.

Likewise, if you're a (generally, not always) happy, cheerful person, and you have respect for yourself, you usually have respect for everyone else. But it depends on the person.

There are people who are not happy with themselves, so they treat others accordingly. People who always need to project their insecurities onto others usually aren't happy with themselves. Everyone does this, but many people do it with a certain trait they may dislike in themselves and see in others.

Quote:
People who are self-aware can treat people completely at random. Many people are so wrapped up in themselves or in their world that they have no conscious control on how they treat people.


They have little conscious control, but usually in the case of the self-centered person, it's also because they don't care enough about others to care how they treat others, not just because they lack control over it.

They have resigned themselves to being stuck within themselves, so the result is "I am more important than you, and whatever goes on must be about me / in reference to me / etc. etc, me"
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Postpsychokind Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:20 am   Post subject: Reply with quote

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what kind of classification are people which treat people in a way to take benefit of it? I always thought this is "narcisstic"?^^
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