[HOT ISSUE] Abortion

[Jason Tandro]

Okay, well this week's hot issue is Abortion. I think it's time we got down to the deep and gritty stuff. Now since this is such a hot issue, please make sure that you have read the rules of the forum and also you may wanna peak at my Suggestions before posting.

Remember, we're all friends, so let's keep things civil.


Now my opinion on abortion is this:

I believe that abortion is murder. HOWEVER, I do not believe that we can completely ban it because there are certain instances where I feel it should be allowed.

1. If the mother's life is in danger, we have a duty to protect existing lives over potential ones, besides which if the mother dies, the child will also likely die.

2. If the child is a rape baby or product of incest. I don't think the mother should have to be forced to keep a baby she didn't choose to have. I'd still rather see adoption over abortion, but we can't be completely heartless about this sensitive issue.

I DO NOT condone abortion as an alternative means of birth control. I feel (and this is sort of a tie in to the Family Planning thread) that if you're dumb enough to get knocked up because you refuse to use birth control, you shouldn't have the right to end a life over it.

Adoption is a perfectly reasonable alternative to killing a child's life, and I think more often than not some of these girls are just trying to avoid the pain of childbirth. (I say some, because I realize that this is probably not a majority).

I am also not trying to say that women have these abortions just as casually as blinking and then go along to the next activity (well maybe some of them do... but). I realize that the choice to have an abortion is often a very difficult one, but I implore you to realize that adoption is a much better choice.

And please don't sell me the tired argument of "I don't want a kid to lead a lousy life as an orphan." or "I can't bring a kid into this messed up world".

If it's the former argument, then is killing a child really better? If it's the latter then you should just have that neat little surgery. (Just had an image of that Price is Right guy.... Remember spay or neuter your pets ).

Okay, discuss.

[thefencemaster]

Okay, well this week's hot issue is Abortion. I think it's time we got down to the deep and gritty stuff. Now since this is such a hot issue, please make sure that you have read the rules of the forum and also you may wanna peak at my Suggestions before posting.

Remember, we're all friends, so let's keep things civil.


Now my opinion on abortion is this:

I believe that abortion is murder. HOWEVER, I do not believe that we can completely ban it because there are certain instances where I feel it should be allowed.

1. If the mother's life is in danger, we have a duty to protect existing lives over potential ones, besides which if the mother dies, the child will also likely die.

2. If the child is a rape baby or product of incest. I don't think the mother should have to be forced to keep a baby she didn't choose to have. I'd still rather see adoption over abortion, but we can't be completely heartless about this sensitive issue.

I DO NOT condone abortion as an alternative means of birth control. I feel (and this is sort of a tie in to the Family Planning thread) that if you're dumb enough to get knocked up because you refuse to use birth control, you shouldn't have the right to end a life over it.

Adoption is a perfectly reasonable alternative to killing a child's life, and I think more often than not some of these girls are just trying to avoid the pain of childbirth. (I say some, because I realize that this is probably not a majority).

I am also not trying to say that women have these abortions just as casually as blinking and then go along to the next activity (well maybe some of them do... but). I realize that the choice to have an abortion is often a very difficult one, but I implore you to realize that adoption is a much better choice.

And please don't sell me the tired argument of "I don't want a kid to lead a lousy life as an orphan." or "I can't bring a kid into this messed up world".

If it's the former argument, then is killing a child really better? If it's the latter then you should just have that neat little surgery. (Just had an image of that Price is Right guy.... Remember spay or neuter your pets ).

Okay, discuss.

You know Jason, I find it very hard to post anything after you do. You always seem to have very similar opinions to me.

So pretty much I agree with what he said.

[psychokind]

I think abortion is an important thing, since if I make a girl pregnant right now I'd want her to abort by all means.

maybe abortion is murder, but some people are better of dead, and if you know the child will be strongly handicapped, or rape, incest, no money, too young parents whatever it's better not to grow up in such an environment.

[tay120n64]

As a Christian, I do not agree with abortion. Despite circumstances where it may be considered less risque, it is something that remains wrong.

HOWEVER!

As a Free-Thinking Individual, I believe that abortion should not be outlawed. There are circumstances where it must be taken and, after all, if you're not a Christian than morality plays little factor anyway. (I don't mean anything bad by that. Really.)

I have seen situations where it was the right thing to do. And it's never an easy decision to make (if it is, you should probably be concerned for yourself). Oftentimes, younger people do it because they have no guidance or help. Having a child can be frightening, and having a bunch of self-righteous nutjobs telling you what's right and what's wrong doesn't help.

As an American, I think abortion should (continue?) to be up to the states. If the majority wants it outlawed, it's outlawed. If not, then no.

[Freedan]

I certainly don't encourage it. I sincerely believe that adoption is always a better alternative.

But outright banning it will never work, for a very simple reason. If a mother doesn't want to have the baby, she won't have the baby. We're talking bumps in to the table, punches in the stomach, "accidental" falls down the stairs....

At the very least, the mother's health can be looked out for at a clinic, where it can be done safely. Back-alley or self-inflicted abortions are the alternative.

While I don't condone it, I have a hard time accepting it as "murder". Murder is taking a human life, is it not? But in-vitro uses fertilized eggs, and the ones that aren't used are thrown away. I've never heard anyone call that murder.

[Jason Tandro]

While I don't condone it, I have a hard time accepting it as "murder". Murder is taking a human life, is it not? But in-vitro uses fertilized eggs, and the ones that aren't used are thrown away. I've never heard anyone call that murder.

Well that is a tad simplistic. They aren't thrown away, they just are improperly fertilized (that is the fertilization doesn't take the way we'd like it to). This is biology, not direct human actions.

[Freedan]

Sure, they throw them away.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-121731891.html

I see it's mentioned that opponents of that refer to the eggs as "human life to be protected", but they don't call it murder.

[Jason Tandro]

Sure, they throw them away.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-121731891.html

I see it's mentioned that opponents of that refer to the eggs as "human life to be protected", but they don't call it murder.

Oh you mean the ones that haven't been implanted. Hmm... that is an interesting moral dilemma.

[inferiare]

Ohhh boy. Here we go. You've brought up a pretty sensitive subject for me.

Like Jason, I believe that it should only be done in certain cases, such as a rape/incest baby (I wouldn't want to keep that child if I were raped, and as much as I would hate to kill off an innocent life that did nothing to deserve it, I would be hard-pressed to keep it, myself) or if the mother (or even the child's!) life were in danger. I've had a couple of friends who got pregnant who were too young to deal with it, so... well, I was ok with it, since I don't think they could have dealt with it physically and emotionally. One friend though, I told YOU DON'T DO THAT AGAIN, and that was that.

HOWEVER. At any stage of a pregnancy, to me, it's murder. It's not just a lump of fetal tissue, it is a living human being, and it has been the moment the sperm hits the egg.

I don't condone abortion as a means of birth control; there's other means out there for birth control, such as condoms, spermicides, birth control pills, and flat out not having sex. It drives me up the wall on how many people can have five or six abortions if only because "Oh lol, I got knocked up again! Time to get rid of it!" because those sorts of women do exist. For others, just having one is a difficult decision to make, and it has lasting traumatic effects on the mother, which is another reason I don't condone it, especially for younger teenagers, and sometimes, even the adults that go through them. I've seen first-hand experience that having an abortion can give a lot of traumatic stress after the fact, even a few years after.

The only sort of abortion I find that should stay completely outlawed (and I do believe is in every state, I'd have to find out and I'm lazy at the moment) is partial birth abortion. Don't know what that is? Go look at the diagrams of how they're usually performed. Basically it's pull the baby out by its legs (and yes, by this time, whether you believe it starts out as a lump of tissue or an actual being, it IS a baby since it's usually in the third trimester of pregnancy, which means betwee 5-9 months along) and shove a pair of scissors into the back of the skull, effectively killing the baby, and then tossing the body.

Gruesome, isn't it?

[Flamez]

I have no opinion on this one

[EverPhoenix]

im somewhat on the fence, reaching over to both sides at once.

i believe that abortion is, first of all, up to the mother, and the mother only. i dont think anyone at all has the right to tell a potential mother what she can and cant do with her body. if she doesnt want a child, my personal belief is that the child would be better off not coming into the world, than coming into a world of either neglect, or being adopted and questioning for the rest of his/her life. most people (unless they have had an abortion) wouldnt understand the emotional strain on a woman, so they have no right to tell her that she isnt allowed to have an abortion. anyone who does... well, i dont think they should say a word until theyve themselves been in the situation. especially if its on religious grounds and not from their own ideas.

on the other hand, there is the potential for a human life. i believe that ending a life for selfish reasons like that is wrong, but one must draw the line somewhere. i think that if someone is to have an abortion, it must be done early in the pregnancy. if it is done too late (a few months past), then it is effectively murder, as the baby would be quite developed. if it is done in the early stages of pregnancy, it is less of an evil, as it is isnt much more a potential life than any sperm or egg.

[tay120n64]

Oh you mean the ones that haven't been implanted. Hmm... that is an interesting moral dilemma.

Well the way I've always looked at it is: If you have to draw a line, you've already crossed it.

i believe that abortion is, first of all, up to the mother, and the mother only. i dont think anyone at all has the right to tell a potential mother what she can and cant do with her body. if she doesnt want a child, my personal belief is that the child would be better off not coming into the world, than coming into a world of either neglect, or being adopted and questioning for the rest of his/her life. most people (unless they have had an abortion) wouldnt understand the emotional strain on a woman, so they have no right to tell her that she isnt allowed to have an abortion. anyone who does... well, i dont think they should say a word until theyve themselves been in the situation. especially if its on religious grounds and not from their own ideas.

Expanding on this a little. I feel that it should not be solely up to the mother. It may just be because I'm male that I feel this way, but if the father of the child is against the abortion, and really cares for both the mother and the child, should his opinion not count?

What do you guys think?

[EverPhoenix]

i agree to some extent, the father should definitely have a say in the matter. but in the end, i still think its the mother's choice. shes the one giving birth, she'll be the one who will have to compromise the most of her next few years to care for the child, and in the end it is still her body that is going through this all. although im sure any good father will provide all the support he can muster, and does deserve a say, but the final word should still be with the mother. on the flip, most girls would want the support from the father, and would be heavily influenced by their decision.


but how many cases have you known where the guy really wants a baby and the girl doesnt?

[inferiare]

@EP: I'm in agreement with you. If an abortion has to be done, I'd prefer it in the first few weeks, if not the first month. Anything more would disturb me. I know there would be some cases where they wouldn't realize that the child is effectively killing its mother until later, in which I can be ok with the fact that an abortion would happen later on, but that's a different story.

@tay: Yes and no. Yes, they should be able to voice their opinions on whether or not they should have an abortion. But like EP said, it should really be the mother's decision in the end. The problem is, is that it's a double edged sword: the abortion could potentially screw up the mother and she'd freak out about killing her unborn child, something that is essentially a part of her (those stories about women getting attached to their children while still in the womb? Completely true.), or she could freak out later after the child is born. It really depends on the emotional state, I guess, especially if the mom is really young.

[psychokind]

what about sickness and handicaps you can't foresee in the first weeks/months? I think it's better killing a fetus than presenting him a life full of shit after it's born