Dungeon Delving- Yay or Nay?

[Jason Tandro]

So I may have my RPG Expert card revoked for this, but I really can't stand dungeon delving. I think it is the most singularly unenjoyable experience of most RPGs.

Take Skyrim for instance. Their dungeons are beautiful and masterfully crafted. But anytime I get a mission that requires me to go into a dungeon (especially those big dwarven ones) I think to myself "Welp, it's time to go waste a half-hour of my life".

I think the archetype of the dungeon is vastly overused. It is a call-back to a time when RPGs required small contained maps to conserve space. Even other missions in Skyrim itself are much more enjoyable without requiring going into a major dungeon.


Now, that said, I believe there are a few games and franchises that do dungeons right.

Zelda is, of course, the obvious one that comes to mind, although I have to admit, in the 2D Zelda games (with the exception of Link to the Past) I really dread going into the dungeons, as I know the puzzles, while interesting, are mostly going to be variations of puzzles I've already seen in other Zelda games. But still they have the courtesy to offer a map and compass and make the dungeon seem a lot more manageable than most RPGS.

Paper Mario Thousand Year Door had some great dungeons. They were few in number and the gameplay was so inviting that the dungeons were really not that intimidating.

Final Fantasy is a mixed bag. The dungeons in Final Fantasy 1 through 5 are mostly fairly boring. Final Fantasy 6, 7, 8 and to an extent 9 are much more enjoyable because there's a lot more variety. Final Fantasy X had only a few dungeons and they pretty well sucked, not counting the Cloister of Trials in the temples. X-2's dungeons were about the same. XII dungeons were intolerable and boring, with a couple exceptions, but at least they were also great places to level up. XIII... what dungeons?

Now for the games I talk about a lot.

Star Ocean: The Second Story is a great game, but its dungeons are really very boring and standard, with a couple great exceptions like Cave of Trials, Eluria and the Field of Power.

Threads of Fate had a few "dungeons" and they were actually very well done, no complaints.

But if there is a game that defines exactly how dungeons should be created if you must create dungeons, it would be Wild Arms 3. They didn't feel like dungeons in that game, but elaborate obstacle courses.



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So now that my rambly rant is over, what do you think?

[SoulBlazerFan]

I was never really bothered by dungeon crawling. In fact, I loved exploring them inside and out when I was a kid. When I picked up Oblivion a few years ago, I must've spent 30 hours or so just going through every cave/dungeon I could find... and later realizing I had cleared out a few that were part of the main story or a side quest, and had to run through them again.

That is where my dislike of dungeons comes from- when you're forced to go through them repeatedly. I can only blame myself for the above, but plenty of games add time by forcing you to backtrack to areas already previously ventured. It's one thing when you're going there to open a new area. It's another like, say, Resident Evil 2 (I know not an RPG but I can't think of one off the top of my head), for the armory room or the hidden lab room with the submachine gun at the end of the game.

[inferiare]

I'm... well, dungeon-going usually means I have to grind and I absolutely HATE that in a game. There are a few games where grinding - and conversely the dungeon - are a ton of fun. One that I don't mind in terms of gameplay is Persona 3. The dungeons are randomly generated so you don't see the same floor twice, and once you get Fuuka as your guide through Tartarus, you can change the dungeon music if you have P3FES.

There's also SUPER FUN TIMES that can happen on the maps! If you linger too long? The Grim Reaper will appear (and that's absolutely freaking TERRIFYING the moment you hear chains. Better find the exit fast!), less monsters than normal, gold monsters that drop treasure, lots of monsters on a field... yeah. I actually enjoyed the dungeons in P3.

[tay120n64]

I LOVE Dungeon Crawling, but RPGs are damn good and making my favorite part of Adventure games into the most miserable experience ever. Excessive random encounters and tedious grinding kill what is the whole point of Dungeon Crawling: Exploration.

Final Fantasy is awful about this, but then, most old RPGs with random encounters are. Games like FFXII, Earthbound, and Lufia II made it far more manageable by doing away with that.

Games like Lufia II, Ys, and Zelda have some of the best dungeon crawling, because they focus on navigation and interaction, rather than just straight mazes and fights. Ys, in particular, I love because when grinding is necessary, a quick level or two often makes a significant difference. The Adol that exits the dungeon is not the same Adol that entered it, and I love that. Earthbound had that same level of progression, but getting there was never fun.

Kingdom Hearts is an example of how to take the completely awful dungeon crawling, grinding, and environment interaction of games like Final Fantasy and literally ONLY improve the combat. I actually feel like the improved combat only makes the environments that much more transparent, and the dungeons that much harder to take seriously.

The problem I have with Zelda dungeons is that they are becoming far too structured. The DS Zelda games were the worst offenders of this, always progressing as a linear path, without any choice of going into rooms in an alternate or incorrect order. It's all puzzles and combat, but no exploration. I like the freedom to make wrong decisions just as much as I like the ingenuity to give me multiple ways to solve a problem.

A dungeon is three things:
-A Maze
-A Puzzle
-A Battle Arena

It must succeed at all three of these things to be a successful dungeon. And it's rare that we see that.

[Jason Tandro]

tay120n64 wrote:

A dungeon is three things: -A Maze -A Puzzle -A Battle Arena It must succeed at all three of these things to be a successful dungeon. And it's rare that we see that.

If that is your definition of a good dungeon (and don't get me wrong, I think you hit the nail on the head there, at least generally speaking) then we must accept that some oft-loathed dungeons are actually ideal dungeons.

I mean what dungeon comes to everybody's mind when we think overly elaborate maze and puzzle, with some fighting and the ability to sequence break at the risk of making the wrong decision, yet is loathed by Joe Gamer?





I think your description does miss a few key points which really push it from "tolerable" to "enjoyable"

1. The dungeon must have be relevant to the overall story, as well as having its own story to tell.

Take for instance Ipsen's Castle from Final Fantasy IX. It had all of the above, if it was slightly linear, had a pretty interesting mechanic, and told its own story as well as furthering the plot of the game.

Another great example would be, again, any of the Wild Arms 3 dungeons. Each dungeon has its own internal story, but each serves to push the plot forward as well.


2. The dungeon must have reason and function in its design.

The best dungeon in Final Fantasy history is either the Lunatic Pandora or Ultimecia's Castle from Final Fantasy 8. These are not top-down dungeons but everyday real world structures which have dungeon-like elements. They seem more realistic, and therefore more immersive. And who the hell doesn't like just wandering around Ultimecia's Castle with Enc-None turned on and admiring all the creepy imagery. Holy crap, I need to play FF8 now...


3. The dungeon should have a unique look, feel and tone.

Again drawing from the samples above, but also the Zelda dungeons. Even in the 2D incarnations, they are at least good at trying to make each dungeon have a unique gimmick, idea, etc that makes it special, even if it is centered around the deus ex machina placement of special dungeon completion tool du jour.

Although really I have to give a nod to Chrono Trigger on this point. Each dungeon was really very unique, even if sometimes the music was a tad samey.

[tay120n64]

I think the Water Temple is a fantastic dungeon, but it was weighed down by two primary factors: the Iron Boots not being an Item and a little too much Trial-and-Error regarding changing water levels. The constant menu-equipping and backtracking made a very well-designed dungeon into pure tedium.

I've honestly never understood the hate. It's one of the stronger and more memorable dungeons in the game.

[EverPhoenix]

It's definitely memorable... I didn't hate it /that/ much, but having to backtrack ALL the way to Dark Link's room because I somehow forgot the key was a pain in the ass.

As for dungeons in general, I agree with most of what's been said. Older RPGs - dungeons were there to pad the time. They were, for the most part, a waste of time. Even though Lufia II had nice mechanics with monster encounters, some dungeons were a bit pointless. Thief stole the Ruby Apple? Let's go dungeon crawling!

Puzzles are good in dungeons, but when I play RPGs, I play for three main reasons:
1. Enjoy the plot.
2. Enjoy the character development and their interactions.
3. Take said characters, and abuse the in-game mechanics to make them stupidly powerful.

If I see a puzzle in a game like that that requires a lot of effort to solve (i.e. trial and error, pushing blocks for half an hour, mazes, etc), I'll just go look up the solutions so I can get back to what I like doing. Tales of Symphonia had good puzzles, in the way that they weren't a piece of cake, but weren't too intensive either. There is one exception - I LOVE sliding puzzles (Ice Path in Pokemon GSC).

If a dungeon is actually necessary to the plot, I don't mind. If it isn't, it better not take too long, for the reasons above. Unless the scenery is amazing (Sylvain Castle, Terranigma. Awesome dungeon), or the background music is awesome. Jason's examples of the Lunatic Pandora and Ultimecia's castle - great dungeons.

[inferiare]

See, while I LOVE me some Tales of games, the most recent release in America (Graces f, for those playing at home) had some fun dungeons. Battles in Graces are pretty fun so I don't mind running around and Fighting All The Things (I mean look at this, NO MP ERMAHGERD) but... one of the dungeons you can go through for good gear, money, and EXP has the worst puzzles.

The Sandshroud Ruins is terrible. They introduce the colour puzzles you see in that video in a mandatory dungeon but not to that effect. The worst they do is make you backtrack a little (you have to have eleth lines running into a door to open it from two different areas) and all it takes is moving the arrows. Not so in the optional dungeon. In Sandshroud Ruins you get to blend colours to trigger doors, light up certain panels or else you can't get the treasure chests to open... yeah. It's a big pain in the ass. I think the absolute worst dungeon is in the post-game story Lineage and Legacies (though World's Eye is pretty damn bad) is Arcadia Gardens (with bonus leadup with an escape from one of the labs on Fodra! F&%$ing lasers were the bane of my existence while playing holy God.)

I really don't like when fun games have otherwise irritating and frustrating dungeons. Makes it less fun for me.

[Jason Tandro]

Oh believe me, I know the feeling.

Dark Cloud is especially notorious for this. It's dungeons are well-designed and have great music, but they are just... boring. Partly the fault of being random, when you have random dungeons it's difficult to have a lot of great detail.

Strangely, I thought the random dungeon in Ehrgeiz was pretty decent, for an el-cheapo random dungeon quest game. They have some attention to detail, traps, and the fact that it's a fighting game makes monster fighting a lot more engaging.

[tay120n64]

I briefly played Brain Lord a few years back, and the dungeons in that are RIDICULOUS. It's like, take the hardest puzzles in Lufia II, and have nothing but that. Needless to say, I burnt out fairly early in the game. I should track it down again and give it another shot.